IDK about JV, but for Varsity, Paly's football team always beat Gunn throughout the years, even back to the 70s when I attended. It was such a slaughtering that they took a two year break because Paly preferred to play a more competitive team. Web Link The community complained that it was more than just a football game, it was a social event. Looking at the Paly Varsity schedule, Gunn isn't on the schedule for this year: Web Link

I was thinking that maybe a HS tackle football rivalry within P.A. now, would not be 'woke'.

The Gunn varsity football team forfeited a game last season to Woodside because they did not have enough healthy players.

Web Link

It is just that every sport has its own league alignment (of schools), and, in Football, Paly is in the "A" division and Gunn is in the "B" division.

Web Link

For example, in Girls Volleyball, both Palo Alto and Gunn are in the same, "A" division.

IMHO, Gunn should just drop football entirely.

yes, Anon was thinking like me, Ben Dan. Since I never played football myself, I tend to believe every bad thing I ever read by other people who never played. Like Adam ruins everything and Greg Gumbell's brother, the one David Letterman made fun of. I would selfishly impose my preference for flag football on everyone, too. That's why they call me Ben Dan. Every Superbowl, and NFL draft special, and so forth, I pout at its popularity and wonder why it can't be banned.

Thanks for everyone's comments, especially Paly Alum, with that thought that a local sports event may transcend mere L's and W's. In fact, my two favorite games last year, were both 'L's.' But fear of loss= not even compete and try to improve? I still don't understand that concept.

Some of you are talking like Paly wins all of their games and Gunn loses all of theirs, which is not the case. In fact, until last year, 2018, Paly's football team had not had a winning season since legendary coach Earl Hansen retired in 2013. What if Paly had whined in 2014-2017 that they were not competitive and cancelled football? Ridiculous, right? Again, I am not keen on basing closure of HS programs on cliché's. These are public HS's, not open ones. So, what of say #21 Phillip Doan, #12 Solomone Paletua, #4 Leemaster Howard, and #72 Ken Erian from Gunn's team last year? Is it you, Anon, whose going to tell them, 'sorry, Gunn is not a football school, we're getting rid of it because Paly is better (before they even play). Maybe you should try tech classes, since Gunn (only?) means Indian kids who do well in spelling B's and so forth...

Point of Information: I appreciate that the football programs are classified in A and B. But do A teams NEVER play B teams? Can B teams learn nothing from playing A teams? Last year, Paly HS was 10-2, and Paly JV were 4-5; Gunn HS had a record of 4-6 (they beat Los Altos!, and their JV: 4-5.

I have a fear that the kids are getting poor life lessons, if they are being told, 'you're not as good, you can't even compete on the same field' (as your friends on the other side of town). A lot of times in life, their are 'upsets' aren't there? In this case, Gunn is not even being given a chance, and Anon would cancel their program completely. (!).

Also, from a purely aesthetic point of view, both high schools have very cool football fields. Why deny Paly's players the joy of playing with the owls and donkeys in the woods of Bol Park? and Gunn's, the jolt of adrenaline in the 4th quarter when the train goes by...?

Given the ever-increasing evidence that playing football leads to Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) and permanent mental impairment, I'm surprised that football programs still even exist in communities like Palo Alto. Web Link

Yes, Another, I believe Ben Dan and Anon already have you covered above. also, yes, Flanders does not permit Rod and Todd to climb a rock wall, for fear that his kids will be injured, so they should not participate. However, so far at least, you fellows are not yet forcing your preferences onto others by law(s). That would not be very libertarian and democratic, would it?

From my kids, the "Little Big Game" was a highlight of the school year. We have t shirts that were made for it. Those who never went to a regular game, went to a little big game. It was never about the result, always about the atmosphere and school spirit.

Local friendly rivalries are good for the school and good for the community. Taking away this tradition seems to be another nail in the coffin of stress relief for our teens.

thanks, Former Paly Parent, a voice of reason!

uh, don't (well-meaning) blue people worry that in their calls to ban this and that (and telling others what size their soda should be) worry just a little that they are pushing purple people into the elephant camp. In nowadays world, shouldn't you?

> I'm surprised that football programs still even exist

Oh, geez. The annual "ban football" hysteria that arrives every August like clockwork, starts early this year!

Show me an NIH CTE study with significant CONTROL GROUPS from everyday life, or with other sports, or other contact sports, please. I probably have some element of CTE at my age and I never played a down of football.

What about soccer? Besides the high concussion rate, are you aware participation by kids is down almost a third?

Youth baseball participation is down.

Ultimate Frisbee? Go look at the National Institute of health study that shows Frisbee players reported a 25% rate of getting concussions in a season. Web Link">Web Link

How about the value of football and contact sports?

Another NIH study: HIGH Prevalence of orthopedic and neurology DEPARTMENT HEADS who played contact sports and had concussions. Web Link">Web Link

What a bunch of dummies. What do those DOCTORS know about health, anyway?

" A cross-sectional survey was administered to 107 orthopedic and 74 neurosurgery chairs. Responses were compared to published historical population norms for contact sports, football, and concussion prevalence"

READ THIS
READ THIS
READ THIS
READ THIS
READ THIS:
" CONCLUSIONS The high prevalence of youth contact sports play and concussion among surgical specialty chairs affirms that individuals in careers requiring high motor and cognitive function frequently played contact sports. The association highlights the need to further examine the relationships between contact sports and potential long-term benefits as well as risks of sport-related injury."

Football 'hysteria' is just that.

The real enemy is video games. Get off the flippin' couch and go play a game, kids.

And then become an orthopedic or neurosurgery department chair.

;-)

> blue people worry that in their calls to ban this

Real Slim K: I'm as left as they get, *way* out there. Don't politicize this. It's hysteria based on lack of knowledge. See above.

thanks so much, go play! you said it. the last thing I need is someone following my teens in Tahoe, telling them they can't ski down black hills because they may get hurt(but that they learned how to do, avoiding injury, by uh, skiing down black hills). or knocking skateboards out of their hands, or telling them they can't drive even. (that will be next). Life can be pretty dangerous. Why don't would-be football banners, go try to stop real violence from crime, poverty, and wars? A great man said it. He lives in Cupertino and his name is Ronnie Lott: "we don't live our lives for fear of getting hurt." so true, what was said about video games. Take a tour of local Jr. High Schools on a Saturday afternoon. Has it ever been easier to find an open tennis court and basketball goal? You would-be sports banners, proud of yourselves?

Who said anything about banning football? I just wouldn't be surprised if more and more parents and kids shy away from the sport because of the increasing evidence of serious health risks. Go ahead and play football, ride a motorcycle without a helmet and go free climbing if you want, but don't be surprised if others don't choose to do so.

Among the parents who don't want their sons to play football are many former NFL players: Web Link

Nine (9) NFL players, are "many"? Further, most say things like "I don't know if I would." Adrian Peterson could not even come up with a reason (why he prefers beating his kid to letting him play football). This is evidence? I suspect, Another, that you are NOT in the legal profession... And Troy Aikman? that's the picture, because the media loves the Dallas Cowboys so much. I don't. bleck. hate them.! that Skip Bayless book was funny.

> Among the parents who don't want their sons to play football are many former NFL players

Many? Nine. Again: where's the control group in that survey?

There are more former Stanford players who locally COACHED their kids as they grew up.

Again: doctors, Stanford grads, Ivy League grads, etc.. that all realize the benefits of contact sports outweigh the risks.

Football isn't for every kid. Neither is lacrosse. Soccer. Wrestling. Badminton. Rugby. Flag 'football'. Baseball. Softball. Playground tag. Skateboarding.

Find a sport. Develop a passion. Get off the couch.

(Kids, too.)

;-)

thanks again, go play!

I think if readers go back, they will realize my earnest question which was addressed in a nice way by Former Paly Parent, was taken off track by the hate football brigade. That's not why I posted. However, every time you post about football on this site, this happens, so like Go Play very nicely pointed out, there became the opportunity for education.

Thanks for the nod, Real Slim K.

As Former Paly Parent mentioned, there are students who attend the Little Big Game but do not attend other football games in the season; it is a social event. It appears that 5 games are not league games, while 5 are league games and the first game is August 31 while school begins 2.5 weeks earlier, on August 13. Maybe add a rivalry game on one of the two weekends prior to August 31, when there isn't much homework yet?

Perhaps someone could ask Coach Gifford: Web Link or the Paly Athletic Director, Therren Wilburn: Web Link or contact Matt Hall, teacher/ASB, Student Activities Director. Maybe they could put Gunn on the schedule as the first game.

Agree that Gunn teams have improved. They had a star basketball team and swim team within the last few years. Gunn students used to transfer to Paly for the better sports teams but PAUSD clamped that down within the last few years because Paly is overcrowded now. You can only transfer if there is a class not offered at your school and PAUSD Attendance does verify.

And it's Paly that has the train roaring past our football field, not Gunn.

I'm not sure who said anything about "banning" something. If not enough Gunn students want to play football, are you going to force some of them? I guess football proponents will want -to draft- athletes who would rather be playing another sport?

As for this: "Another NIH study: HIGH Prevalence of orthopedic and neurology DEPARTMENT HEADS who played contact sports and had concussions." I read that paper some time ago. The missing piece is the age when people started playing. There is strong evidence, as I have posted previously, that the age when players start is highly correlated with neurological damage. If I wanted to propose -banning- something, it would be Pee-Wee, Pop Warner, etc. football. OBTW, that applies to playing soccer with -headers- as well. AYSO/CYSA/etc need to stop promoting headers in pre-teen soccer.

FWIW, I agree that playing video games are not a great substitute for physical activities.

Anon is truly a man after Ben Dan's own heart. He hears the media say Pee Wee and Pop Warner should be banned so often, he feels he must agree. Never mind that of all football, he's just singled out the least not most injuries. AND, Pop Warner has strict weight limits, grade requirements, and girls play, unlike other little league football. I would guess since repitition is so persuasive to Anon, like me, Ben Dan, his currently favorite song is Whitesnakes' "On My Own." The more times nonsense is repeated, the more Ben Dan wants to repeat it.

Posted by Ben Dan, a resident of East Palo Alto

>> Anon is truly a man after Ben Dan's own heart. He hears the media say Pee Wee and Pop Warner should be banned

Do "the media" say that? I've never heard it, but then, I don't watch much TV news (is that what you mean by "the media"? I did read the original research, however, posted the references here a while back, and the only answer back is a reference which doesn't address the issue raised. So, whatever. Go play football. Have fun.

Others who are unfamiliar with the issue might want to start here and work their way forward with Google Scholar:

Web Link

[Post removed.]

'it has only been tested by a small sample of professional football players.' Great basis to say little kids can't play, Anon. That's reading the original research as you say! Well, done.!

Don't know what pound heads said--sorry, it was removed, so you can't get my rose. But Anon...I think we've made such a love connection, that you are my choice! On our honeymoon, we should go to Texas, Oklahoma, and Alabama, hang around David & Busters or Chuck E. Cheese and tell other adult parents how to raise their kids! Then, on to Canada to stop hockey and to New Zealand, to stop rugby.! thanks very much. heart emoji. Ben Dan.

I think it can be inferred by a reasonable person that my original post was based on an assumed premise that tackle football exists this season at the HS level in Palo Alto and because there is no credible urgent threat to stopping it, it will continue to exist next season. I asked about a rivalry game that has some history involved, and that others suggested had transcended sport. I was told that the teams were in different divisions. I questioned this explanation, on the grounds that HS teams occasionally play out of division, so it is not expressly forbidden. Someone offered that Gunn had to forfeit one game last year, so he believed that they should just cancel the program completely. Yet, rather obviously, since Gunn played 10 games last year, the 1 forfeit was due to temporary injuries, so only dubiously the basis for such extreme recourse.

I am not on social media and don't know the rules of communicating with trolls. Should I have stipulated at the start: this is not a request to commence a debate on the merits of tackle football with self-styled crusaders who for some reason, seem to have elevated themselves to Rosa Parks and MLK, Jr. levels regarding human evolutionary progress, and with the Marxian consequence of restricting others' choices? While I do not share your elevated self-satisfaction, if it makes you happy and provides a sense of personal fulfillment, that is fine with me: Crusade on. It just had nothing to do with my posted topic, though. Xie xie, Ben Dan.

Anon, because of health concerns, kids in AYSO and club soccer are now not allowed to head the ball until they get older--not until age 14 from what I've seen around here. Web Link

Posted by Real Slim K, a resident of Midtown

>> I think it can be inferred by a reasonable person that my original post was based on an assumed premise that tackle football exists this season at the HS level in Palo Alto [...] Should I have stipulated at the start: this is not a request to commence a debate on the merits of tackle football with self-styled crusaders [...]

I understand that football is a religious issue for you, so, as long as we have a first amendment, you are free to play football. Go have fun.

There is, however, a legitimate health concern that has nothing to do with Rosa Parks, MLK, Marx, etc.:

>> [who for some reason, seem to have elevated themselves to Rosa Parks and MLK, Jr. levels regarding human evolutionary progress, and with the Marxian consequence of restricting others' choices? While I do not share your elevated self-satisfaction, if it makes you happy and provides a sense of personal fulfillment, that is fine with me: Crusade on. It just had nothing to do with my posted topic, though. Xie xie, Ben Dan.

The statistical approach and the physiological approach both indicate that football at <= age 12 is a problem. From a religious standpoint, age 14 was often seen as a good cutoff for adult responsibility. So, happily, religion and science roughly coincide here. Football is for 14+ kids who make their own moral decisions.

Anon: You provided no such objective evidence to support your final paragraph's contentions. Go Play a game above requested comparative stats re: kids' tackle football with other kids' sports, regarding injuries, and you couldn't even provide that minimal request.

Your thing about 12 and 14 years of age and religion is so puzzling as to be ad homonym. Was this based on Jebus going to the temple? Then, why didn't you stick with 12, rather than change to 14? In either case, wouldn't it be prudent to include your promised stats about injuries to Pop Warner football players ages 9, 10, 11,12, & 13 etc.? Or...are you just basing these assertions on what your feelings, what you imagine, should be true? (without actually watching the kids' sporting events in question).

re: Ben Dan. Don't forget to send me an invitation to the wedding, since I'm the one who brought you two together!

@anon:

Your link is to 'studies' (again, no control groups) that involves Chris Nowinski of the notorious "Concussion Legacy Foundation". CLF took $3 million from WWE (wrestling) to study concussions.

To date, CLF has only studied football players (just 1 wrestler.) Odd, no?

Clearly, the NFL should have pulled a WWE and also bought off CLF for a paltry three mill. (do not confuse this with any support of the NFL, they've been egregious.)

re: "Another NIH study: HIGH Prevalence of orthopedic and neurology DEPARTMENT HEADS who played contact sports and had concussions." I read that paper some time ago.

Read it again.

Where are you on girls soccer, wrestling, rugby, lacrosse, frisbee, etc..?

Stanford researchers are using high-tech mouth guards to study head trauma in young athletes.

Web Link

Good posting, Real Slim K. Your thread got hijacked. The best thing to do is simply ignore the trolls, not dignify their postings with a response. Otherwise, it's throwing fuel on a fire. People get so off-topic these days, everyone wants their 2 cents and right of free speech even when proven wrong. The far left focusing only on their interests and demands (despite what reports/research and the general public believes) encourages spewing of opinions even when not asked, even when the opinions have been proven incorrect. Our society is becoming classless because of them.

...and John B, asked about his kids on the ski slopes. okay or not okay, Anon?

What came to my mind besides riding motorbikes and surfing, was little girls practicing on the balance beams and saw horses and so forth, which no doubt, causes injuries. If forced to wait until 14, to begin, what would be their chances to make the Olympic team?

Surely, Anon isn't seriously advocating a Bible based law, for when the State can release personal choice to the individual rather than from the parent, beginning at age 12 or 14? What other choices would the State make prior to age 14? I think most constitutional scholars would object to religion-based laws in 2019.

but back to the original topic, for a second: It appears ANON grudgingly concedes HS football is okay. I wonder if JV is okay, since there could be some kids, who are not yet age 14, when they are asked to 'sign up' for football, going into their 9th grade year. Seems like this should be at least an asterisk* following his logic, unless by decree of Anon, JV football should not begin until 10th grade. That is, unless your 9th grader failed or was held back academically a year (which would make him a better candidate for football?).

Sorry, Paly Alum, I read your wise advice too late...

Real Slim K/go play

From the abstract of your favorite paper Web Link

"Responses were compared to published historical population norms for contact sports (high school 27.74%, collegiate 1.44%), football (high school 10.91%, collegiate 0.76%), and concussion prevalence (12%)."

"high school ... collegiate" "high school ... collegiate".

No mention of contact sports <= age 12.

--

"The association highlights the need to further examine the relationships between contact sports and potential long-term benefits as well as risks of sport-related injury."

I couldn't agree more, but, next time, they need to include <= age 12.

Oh, and, about headers in soccer and body-checks in ice-hockey and, .. ? Again, there is a "need to further examine" ...

okay, they didn't include ten year olds:

107 orthopedic and 74 neurosurgery chairs - The high prevalence of youth contact sports play and concussion among surgical specialty chairs affirms that individuals in careers requiring high motor and cognitive function frequently played contact sports.


**TWO HUNDRED SURGICAL SPECIALTY DEPARTMENT CHAIRS**


But we didn't ask them if they played contact sports before they were twelve.

(but, of course, most of them did, right?)

Posted by go play a gawddurn game, a resident of Fairmeadow

>> okay, they didn't include ten year olds:
>> But we didn't ask them if they played contact sports before they were twelve.
>> (but, of course, most of them did, right?)

Could be, but, I doubt it. Most of them probably were that age in the 60's. Back then, (I was there), tackle football was for physically much more mature high school students. We played touch football until age 14. In fact, back then, hard contact in sports was not encouraged until you got to be older and "tougher".

I never heard of Pop Warner football until I moved back to the Bay Area ca. 1980. I have no idea how many 10-12 year olds were in Pop Warner in the 60's-- you have statistics on growth of Pop Warner over the years?

> you have statistics on growth of Pop Warner over the years?

No. But...

Santa Clara Lions are over 50 years old.
RCW is over 60. Menlo Park Lions were active then. Ditto the Palo Alto Knights, Sunnyvale Rockets, MV Marauders, etc.. A host of PAL teams. Also: Football has always been full of independent leagues.

More to the point: my middle school had tackle teams.

Neither of us can prove it, but to suggest that **TWO HUNDRED SURGICAL SPECIALTY DEPARTMENT CHAIRS** had their very first experience with contact sports in high school is a bit of a reach.

Lastly: I respect your opinion, I respect the data for what it is. Any 70 year old football player who has had his brain scanned played in a different era, different customs, different practices, different rules, different equipment.

Every 1960's coach: "ha, ha, ya got yer bell rung - now get yer @$$ back in there and do some real damage!"

Much like the 25% concussion rate frisbee players, many of whom admitted they went back to the game with a concussion.

Reminds me of that truly horrible scene we saw in the World Cup 5 years ago, when every one watching just *knew* the German was concussed and continued to play. It later came out:

"The Germany midfielder Christoph Kramer was disoriented and confused after taking a heavy blow to the head early in the World Cup final, according to the match referee.

“Shortly after the blow, Kramer came to me asking: ‘Ref, is this the final?’” ... “I thought he was joking and made him repeat the question and then he said: ‘I need to know if this is really the final.’ "