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Original post made
by Joe, Midtown,
on May 17, 2012
This is such an emotional issue. I would hope people wait until all of the facts are in and the evidence presented before passing judgement and demonstrating in the streets.
We need to stop the rhetoric, and wait for the evidence and the trial. GZ, after being told by police officials to stand down, engaged in a fight, and now claims self defense.
We need to see all the evidence.
" "The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement," an investigating officer wrote. "
Leaving the safety of your vehicle against instructions is self defense???
"The witness heard "someone yelling, almost crying. Then I heard a gunshot." The witness wrote that he or she "saw a man on top of a guy laying on the ground. He was putting his hands on his neck or chest." The man asked the witness to call 911.
"He stood up and took a couple steps away and put his hands on his head and then walked back over to the guy on the ground. He looked at him for a minute, then started to walk away toward the road."
Sure, while that seems like it clinches it against GZ, we need to see all the evidence.
I do support my young people. I teach them to not go onto private property ( yards, entering a gated community). I teach them how to dress like upright people, not like a thug, I teach them to respectfully speak with others, I teach them not to do drugs or steal.I teach them that regardless of our color or our gender, our behaviors and dress imply to the world who we are, and we are treated as we are perceived. I teach them to note dangerous situations and walk away.
I teach them reality. I teach them survival skills.
This just seems like a political prosecution of GZ. Where was the crime? The police did not charge him until national pressure was put on by racist elements.
Joe--where was Trayvon Martin's crime? He was executed by an armed vigilante who is now claiming self defence.
"Just over two weeks after the fatal shooting, and less than a month before an arrest was made, police in Sanford, Florida, urged prosecutors to take George Zimmerman into custody after arguing his killing of Trayvon Martin was "ultimately avoidable.""
The above was two weeks after the incident before "national pressure" came into play. The racist was Zimmerman.
TM's crime was that he was beating GZ. GZ was a block monitor, and had every right to surveil suspicious characters, without being beat up.
"TM's crime was that he was beating GZ. GZ was a block monitor, and had every right to surveil suspicious characters, without being beat up."
And you base this on what evidence????? Actually GZ was a self-appointed block monitor. He had no authority whatsoever. He may have the right to "Surveil" anyone--but he had no right to hunt down an innocent child coming back from a 7-11. The police told him to stand down. And as you can see from my link above, the police thought he should be arrested
In addition, it was TM who was "Standing his ground"--he was being stalked and ultimately attacked by a brutal older man armed with a gun. For all TM know GZ could have been a dangerous pedophile out to rape him. Any injuries that TM suffered where in self-defense against the brutal attack by potential pedophile and murderer GZ.
Even the author of Florida's stand your ground law says that GZ should be arrested:
There is zero evidence that GZ attacked TM. Just the opposite. TM appears to have had a problem with being surveiled, then he attacked GZ...there was no "stand your ground" by TM, since he is the one who attacked GZ. GZ shot TM from a close distance, after he was getting the crap knocked out of him by TM. The only criminal in this case is TM...he should have gone into his house and called the police, if he thought he was being stalked by a pedophile. GZ used poor judgement, perhaps, but he did not break a law, and therefore he should not have been arrested. He was only arrested after local police were put under enormous political pressure by racists.
"There is zero evidence that GZ attacked TM."
Really??? That is a fantasy. There was evidence. The police stated two weeks after the incident that GZ should have been arrested
"TM appears to have had a problem with being surveiled, then he attacked GZ...there was no "stand your ground" by TM, since he is the one who attacked GZ."
What is "being surveiled" mean???? GZ could have watched TM from a distance and let the police know if there was a problem. TM was committing no crime. There was definitely a "stand your ground" by TM. He was being pursed by a potential pedophile. GZ was not an officer of the law. TM had the right to attack GZ if necessary to protect his life
"GZ shot TM from a close distance, after he was getting the crap knocked out of him by TM."
Pure fantasy. Why was he at a close distance to TM???? Was TM committing a crime?? No. Then why was GZ pursuing him and attacking him? TM was defending himself.
"The only criminal in this case is TM...he should have gone into his house and called the police, if he thought he was being stalked by a pedophile. "
He was on his way to his house, but he never reached it because he was being stalked and attacked by a murderer.
"GZ used poor judgement, perhaps, but he did not break a law, and therefore he should not have been arrested."
obviously the police, the author of the law and the prosecutor felt differently. During his trial it will be determined if he broke the law.
"He was only arrested after local police were put under enormous political pressure by racists."
Bogus statement. I posted the link of what the police stated before this became a national issue. The racist was GZ.
The police should also look into whether GZ "surveilled" other young boys during his tenure as a self-appointed neighborhood "watcher"
Not sure why you are against our justice system running it's course. Do you have a problem with black people? Are you racist like GZ??
"There is zero evidence that GZ attacked TM"
Zimmerman was in his vehicle, following an innocent young man, who was walking from 7/11 with a bag of skittles, returning to his father.
Not trespassing, as some claim. Wearing a hoodie because it was inclement weather; fwiw, I'm a ~60 year old white male, and I have several hoodies, one of them black, ferchrissakes!
How did the unarmed teenager miraculously remove Zimmerman from the vehicle WHERE GEORGE ZIMMERMAN WAS INSTRUCTED TO STAY BY POLICE?
Amazing powers for a kid eating skittles - able to remove an armed, heavier adult man, who supposedly wants to be a cop, from his vehicle after the adult was instructed NOT TO ENGAGE from a police dispatcher. Maybe I should try those skittles, what with their super-powers and all...
That ain't self defense, going against police instruction, starting a fight like that. That's a troubled man looking for trouble.
We need to support our young people, against just the type of troublemakers like Zimmerman. Let the trial sort it out.
And never, ever, let a man like George Zimmerman be a cop.
" Why was he at a close distance to TM???? Was TM committing a crime?? "
When TM closed the distance and attacked GZ, TM was committing a possible felony assault. GZ tried to defend himself, while he was being beaten by TM. TM wasn't going to stop, so GZ used his gun at close distance, clearly self defense...and that is why the local cops did not arrest him, becasue the evidence suggested that he was telling the truth; it still does. The racists (both black and white)put pressure on the cops, and they were politically forced to arrest GZ. If TM was white, instead of black, this story would not have political legs. However, since a brown man killed a black man, there is a political storm, espcially since the media first reported that GZ was white. GZ was also villified by the national press, and got many death threats from the racists.
"When TM closed the distance and attacked GZ, TM was committing a possible felony assault. GZ tried to defend himself, while he was being beaten by TM. "
And you know this how?????
Maybe TM was standing his ground and closed in on GZ, who he assumed was a pedophile stalking him or a robber. You still have not answered why GZ was following TM. The police told him not to. There was no evidence of any crime being committed. Sounds like this was a stalking of TM gone wrong by GZ. Were any of his injuries self inflicted. Does he have a history of observing and following young boys?
Please provide some proof for your allegations re TM. That is why we will be having a trial.
You seem to have a problem with our justice system and the way it works.
"and that is why the local cops did not arrest him, becasue the evidence suggested that he was telling the truth; it still does. "
Continue to ignore the post where it clearly states that the police say that the situation was avoidable and GZ should be arrested (well before the national outcry)
"If TM was white, instead of black, this story would not have political legs."
If TM was white, GZ would not be claiming that he was a minority. There would have been an even greater outcry.
"The racists (both black and white)put pressure on the cops, and they were politically forced to arrest GZ."
Not backed up by any facts whatsoever.
Sorry Joe, your arguments do nothold any water.
Joe: Why don't you use Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman's full name?
Just guessing, but since you are the one constantly bringing up race, you seem like the type who only a few years ago liked using Barack Hussien Obama's full name.
Why the change?
re "When TM closed the distance and attacked GZ" again - what evidence?
An armed Zimmerman left his car to engage, against orders. That is the action of a bully, a troubled person, a stalker or possibly a pedophile. Zimmerman left his car and 'closed the distance'.
That's an attack, not self-defense.
If TM was afraid of a pedophile, why would he approach him? Same thing for the robber theory. TM was unarmed, yet he decided to confront a guy who was following him, even though he was very close to his own house, and could have simply gone inside and called the cops? Why? TM was expelled from his school for various offenses, and that is why he was in another town, one in which there had been a pattern of young black men committing robberies. GZ was part of a crime watch neighborhood group, something that is highly encouraged by police. He felt he needed to follow TM, in order to get the correct address to report to police. TM pushed some attitude to GZ, possibly both ways, then TM closed ground and attacked GZ. The local police felt that the evidence was consistent with this scenario, and they did not arrest GZ. Then the racists got involved....
"why would he (Trayvon) approach him (Zimmerman)?"
Every one of your points is based on this flaw, therefore invalid.
George Zimmerman, 26 year old armed, adult male who wanted to be a cop, followed, stalked, and despite police instruction, leaped out of his vehicle to confront and attack an unarmed kid.
"If TM was afraid of a pedophile, why would he approach him? Same thing for the robber theory. TM was unarmed, yet he decided to confront a guy who was following him, even though he was very close to his own house, and could have simply gone inside and called the cops? Why?"
How would Martin know who Zimmerman was? He may have though the was a pedophile or a robber. Why was Zimmerman following Martin? Why did Zimmerman force a confrontation? Maybe Martin approached him, as allowed in Florida's stand your ground law and was gunned down in cold blood. If there was criminal activity why didn't zimmerman call the police?
"Why? TM was expelled from his school for various offenses, and that is why he was in another town, one in which there had been a pattern of young black men committing robberies."
His school record is irrelevant. Only young black men were committing robberies in Sanford? Please provide the numbers for that claim.
"He felt he needed to follow TM, in order to get the correct address to report to police."
the police told Zimmerman not to follow Martin. That is why the police felt Zimmerman should be arrested--the whole situation was avoidable. Martin was not doing anything wrong. Zimmerman will have to explain under oath why he was stalking Martin. Zimmerman is a self-appointed vigilante. Neighborhood watch volunteers are trained not to confront others, but to call the police when needed. Sounds like Zimmerman "needed" something else and stalked and murdered Martin.
"TM pushed some attitude to GZ, possibly both ways, then TM closed ground and attacked GZ."
There is no proof of this. More fantasy claims by Joe.
"The local police felt that the evidence was consistent with this scenario, and they did not arrest GZ. Then the racists got involved...."
Continue to ignore my story about how the police really felt. At a minimum it should have been turned over to a grand jury the day after the event. There were no racists involved in having Zimmerman arrested. It is our judicial system at work, which you seem to have a problem with, as well as having a problem with young men defending themselves from attacks by pedophiles.
Same old same old from joe. Blame the victim, who is not around to defend himself. Ignore th evidence and cast aspersions on our justice system while blaming phantom "racists".
Time to change your tune.
Once racists get a mindset, it is carved in stone, apparently.
GZ was doing his job, as a crime watcher, something that the neighbors encouraged him to do, including black neighbors, who were concerned about young black men doing robberies. He was fully within his rights to:
1. Follow the guy
2. Get out of his car and follow to determine where the guy was going. He had seen this movie before,and knew that the cops rarely showed up in time to catch a potential perp.
3. See where the guy was entering a back gate, then go around front to get the address.
4. Come back to his car.
5. Defend himself when TM came back towards his car with attitude (he clearly had attitude, that is why his school reecord is relevant). He was not some sweet looking young 14 year old, he was a 17 y/o tough-looking guy.
6. Own a gun, with a permit to carry it, concealed.
7. Stand his ground.
The racists like to describe this incident as a brutal murder of an innocent young black kid by a white vigilante, armed, brute. Shot from a distance. The evidence doesn't support the racists' theory. TM was killed up close by GZ. GZ is not "white"...he is brown (mixed race marriage, but looks quite Hispanic). GZ had head injuries, and TM had injuries to his own fists. The eye witnesses claim that GZ was on the ground and TM was punching him. GZ insisted on calling the cops, after he was attacked, and stood his ground in his own self defense.
There is no plausible reason to bring charges in this case. However, there are racist reasons to bring it.The local cops got it right, from the beginning, until the racists pushed their vile gainst GZ.
More and more of the same crap from Joe--trying to explain away how Zimmerman was stalking a young boy and then executed him. Joe forgets that the police told Zimmerman not to follow Martin. Joe should also proved us with the website where t describes what people in neighborhood watch in sanford should and should not do.
There is no evidence (which I am sure Joe will ignore) that shows how ZImmerman stalked and then executed Martin
"The girl, whose name has not been made public, told Assistant State Attorney Bernie de la Rionda that Martin got away from the man, who turned out to be Zimmerman, but only temporarily.
He was out of breath from running away and scared, she said, and decided not to keep running because he was close to the house where he was staying.
And as Zimmerman drew closer, the girl said, Martin called out, "Why you following me for?" according to the recording.
"I hear this man, like this old man, say, 'What are you doing around here?' " the girl said.""
Zimmerman will have to tell under oath why he was stalking Martin. What crime did he think Martin was carrying out and why he did not just go back to his car and call the police
"Defend himself when TM came back towards his car with attitude (he clearly had attitude, that is why his school reecord is relevant). "
That is clearly not what the witnessed described. His school record is irrelevant, since Zimmerman would have had no knowledge of it, so it could not have determined how he would act.
At a minimum Martin was invoking his rights under stand your ground to defend himself from Zimmerman. We have yet to determine which of the injuries that ZImmerman had were self-inflicted
"The racists like to describe this incident as a brutal murder of an innocent young black kid by a white vigilante, armed, brute. "
There are no racists, as described above. This is all a fantasy by Joe. In fact there is evidence that Zimmerman may have been a racist:
"In one recording, a former co-worker of Zimmerman's says Zimmerman made him the butt of a long-running office joke, ridiculing his Middle Eastern accent and bullying him in what the witness described as a juvenile but infuriating effort to fit in with other workers. In another, an anonymous caller tells a Sanford police officer that Zimmerman and his family are racists."
""I don't know what happened. I don't know at all, who this kid was or anything else," the woman said. "But I know George. And I know he does not like black people. He would start something. He's a very confrontational person.""
Things are looking more and more like the only racism in this case was from ZImmerman
"There is no plausible reason to bring charges in this case. However, there are racist reasons to bring it.The local cops got it right, from the beginning, until the racists pushed their vile gainst GZ."
This how our justice system works--I guess Joe feels if he says over and over again that racists forced the charges and there was no call for charges then it will somehow become true. Joe continue sto ignore the story where it clearly states that local police said charges should been filed.
Zimmerman will not have a pleasant time in prison.
An addendum to one of Joes' comments:
(GZ was doing his job, as a crime watcher, something that the neighbors encouraged him to do, including black neighbors, who were concerned about young black men doing robberies. He was fully within his rights to:)
"In every presentation, “I go through what the rules and responsibilities are,” she said Thursday. The volunteers’ role, she said, is “being the eyes and ears” for the police, “not the vigilante.” Members of a neighborhood watch “are not supposed to confront anyone,” she said. “We get paid to get into harm’s way. You don’t do that. You just call them from the safety of your home or your vehicle.”
Using a gun in the neighborhood watch role would be out of the question, she said in an interview."
"In Sanford, she said, watch groups are not even supposed to make the rounds. That is the job of another kind of volunteer organization, Citizens on Patrol, whose members are selected and trained by the police and who drive the streets in a specially marked vehicle. Members of that group, Ms. Dorival said, “are armed only with a radio.”"
"But the National Sheriffs’ Association, which sponsors the program nationwide, is absolutely clear on one point: guns have no place in a watch group. A manual distributed by the association repeatedly underscores the point: “Patrol members do not carry weapons.”"
"It should be emphasized to members of patrols, the materials state, that “they do not possess police power and they shall not carry weapons.” The consequences of not following the guidelines are severe, the manual states: “Each member is liable as an individual for civil and criminal charges should he exceed his authority.”"
Seems to methat Joe was wrong--Zimmerman was not within his rights to do anything of the things he did. His apparent goal was either some deviant practice or vigilantism.
End of story for Zimmerman.
Again: Joe is the only one to bring up race, which he does at every opportunity, repeatedly.
Joe: His name is George Zimmerman. You don't have to hide it, we've all read about it.
'sahron' has destroyed every one of your fallacies, guesses, false claims and lies.
Go back to bed and cover your eyes with your blankie. It'll all be better then.
"This how our justice system works"
GZ was not arrested by the local cops, until they were put under immense pressure, from the racists, to do so. This is not how our justice system is supposed to work!
Joe--yawn. Come up with something new besides the "racists made the police arrest Zimmerman" claim. Why don't you identify who these "racists" are. [Portion removed due to disrespectful comment or offensive language]
Thank heavens the legal system is protecting our young people.
The bully charged with murdering Teryvon Martin has had his bail revoked due to numerous charges, many of which sound like perjury - lying to the court.
George Zimmerman, who against police dispatch orders, chased an unarmed teenager, engaged him in conflict and shot Martin, then had the nerve to claim self-defense after stalking, chasing, engaging and shooting the unarmed teen.
"Prosecutors say Zimmerman misled the court on his finances during a bail hearing that allowed his release on $150,000 bond....
Judge Kenneth Lester heard the argument at the evidence hearing because he said the matter was "very serious."
State prosecutors said on Friday Zimmerman's wife, Shelley, knew about the PayPal money from his website and lied at the bond hearing when she said she didn't know of it."
Zimmerman also lied about having multiple passports.
Why is Zimmerman lying to the court?
Has Zimmerman profited from this murder? About a quarter million dollars? If he was in California, upon a conviction, wouldn't he have to turn it over to the victim's family?
As Joe said above - "This how our justice system works"
Yes, we must protect unarmed young people from stalkers and bullies. Let's let the legal system function, even if Zimmerman appears to be a liar.
Thank heavens the legal system is protecting our young people.
The evidence is starting to pile up on what kind of bully we have in George Zimmerman; a bully who, after being told to not engage by a police dispatcher, followed and engaged and murdered an unarmed teen.
Related: Shellie Zimmerman, the wife of George Zimmerman, now being held without bond on second-degree murder charges in the slaying of Trayvon Martin, has been arrested and charged with perjury.
Looks like Zimmerman will be charged with perjury soon.
Zimmerman was free on bail, but was recently tossed into jail for his actions during that process.
Says the judge about the bully Zimmerman:
"There are several factors that weigh against [George Zimmerman's] release: this is a serious charge for which life may be imposed; the evidence against him is strong; he has been charged with one prior crime, for which he went through a pre-trial diversion program, and has had an injunction filed against him. More importantly, though is the fact he has now demonstrated that he does not properly respect the law or the integrity of the judicial process."
article Web Link
court docs Web Link
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