There have baen no hopeful news or positive findings around this boondoggle since it was first and foolishly support in an 2008 initiatives.

Study after study, analysis after analysis, no good news, just more and more red flags.

I am starting to believe that the "R" in HSR stands for Rasputin, an evil thing that will not die.

Hos much longer must this beast be allowed to provide more analysis that demonstrates that it is a bad idea?

This really is a good example of politicians in high places either having a personal stake in the project (Quopp and Diridon, inter alia) or just afraid to say "NO!" Anna, Joe, and other local elected officials need to put their feet down once and for all and end this protracted discourse that is a train to nowhere.

Paul


Thank you for sharing


--the HSR boondoggle is dead

--all PA politicians who supported this fraud should be fired ASAP

They are incompetent and should be investigated for conflict of interest

I called it last year in my comments == over $100 billion! and counting!

This is nothing more than vested interests lining their pockets at taxpayer expense.

This boondogggle will never be built. A train to nowhere.

We don't vote out the politicians who waste our tax money, they just keep getting reelected.

Maybe the occupy movement has a point?

The laughable part is, the HSR plan is for NO TRAIN, only 'tracks to nowhere' in the central valley until about $25 billion is down the tubes.

Things have changed massively since Kopp and Diridon hoodwinked state voters with Prop 1A. Most now realize the feds can't afford it, the state's deficit is ballooning even as funds are chopped for education and health care, no equity investors in their right mind will fund this HSR turkey.

A statewide vote today would see HSR go down in flames 2-1. This fact is not lost on elected officials at both the state and federal level. You will now see them, one by one, turning their backs on HSR during the next critical 12 months.

Deadlines will pass unfulfilled. HSR will die after chewing through about $1 billion.

The good news: HSR will not be permitted to blow $100 billion or create an albatross that could drain next generations of California taxpayers of billions forever.

High speed rail is great. I'll pay through the nose for it. Down with the car and gas companies who bought and destroyed tracks going to Santa Cruz. These companies are posing as citizens on these sites. Join the 21st century already. Look at Japan and Europe. Their trains are fantastic. Their people are thin. NIMBYS, didn't you consider the train factor when you bought your house near the tracks?

At what point do our state & congressional legislators say enough is enough? Is there no price that they will say the train costs too much?

When a project goes from $33 billion to $98.5 billion in span of 3 years; when the project cost $33 billion it was going to be profitable; now the cost is tripled, and it's still going to turn a profit?

This makes the loans to the now bankrupt Solyndra look like peanuts.

Clearly our legislators (Simitian, Gorodn, Eshoo, Boxer, Feinstein) favor the special interest groups above the interests of the citizens they are suppose to represent.

This suggests that the original estimates were grossly lowballed. When you factor in the inevitable cost overruns you're looking at $200 billion minimum, or one fifth of a trillion dollars.

Well, the Nimby's on the peninsula have got their wish - any high speed trains up the peninsula is a dead idea. I thought myself that the terminus should be San Jose since trains in the future through and north of SF were not possible. But the Nimby's can now live with grade crossings, bigger traffic jams, Diesel engines, and train horns essentially forever. It's not clear if the money can ever be found for even electrification of the peninsula Caltrains. Recently Caltrain has asserted its domain over its right-of-way up and down the peninsula with high fencing, gates, and so on. A viaduct would be much less of a wall through communities.

So the next campaign will probably be to get rid of Caltrain altogether. But that will be a fun spectacle to watch as some homeowners would gain spectacularly but others would really lose - eg the housing around the San Antonio station and elsewhere. All the transit oriented development and town centers would be a disaster and auto-oriented malls become the real "town centers". There is no reason at all to insulate Nimby's on the Peninsula from the consequences of their own actions. Peninsula cities are playing a zero sum game with one another.

I understand from really long term residents that BART was originally intended to ring the Bay. But for the usual reasons it did not and now never will. Today's costs make such a project essentially impossible and will only get worse.

It's clear that private money will not be available any time soon for transportation related projects since there is so much risk in them - a decade through planning and 10-20 years through inevitable litigation. So only public money can be used and there isn't any. There won't be any foreign money because this kind of thing is perceived as country risk in addition to the country risk added by Banana-Republic Washington gridlock.


The Nimby's almost all care only about their house price as it's their only savings. In general, people don't buy a fire extinguisher unless their house is on fire.

HURRAH, now let's come to our collective common senses by cutting our losses and GTFO. Having spent four years on theoretical talk and half a billion dollars on a few miles of track is nothing compared to the $108,000,000,000 and 20 years of misdirected labor destined to be wasted if we actually go through with this plan, which was a pretty dumb idea to begin with.

Masses of people simply do not travel between SF and LA on a daily, weekly, or even monthly basis -- NorCal and SoCal are their own microcosms -- and for those who do, the existing options of car, plane, or bus/slow-speed rail (Amtrak) suffice. In fact, the car (instinctively seen as the most evil method) usually makes the most financial sense when carpooling's factored in: 400 miles x $0.30/mile = $120. Dividing by 2 gets $60/person, and by 4 a mere $30. HSR can't even beat the former figure.

Public transit is great, but as long as the state's broke as a joke and our colleges are falling apart, let's focus our dwindling transportation resources on something that actually makes sense and benefits the many, i.e. electrifying Caltrain or putting BART on every block.

Transportation in this country is sick. We are a third world country. Actually, third world countries are doing better, they know how to invest in transportation.

Think about it next time your plane from SFO to LA is delayed 4 hours due to fog! Think about it next time you are sitting in traffic on 101. Think about it next time you are waiting on Charleston for a train to pass. Think about it next time you are standing at Cal Ave station waiting for the next train that is late and you have no information as to why - oops, you don't do that because you want to use your car so you don't have to walk anywhere!

Mom X...when you get off the train in LA, you will still need a car to get around.So, what have you gained? Public transportation does not and never will pay for itself

People need to get over the cost and also stop suing this plan to death. It needs to get built. Period. Americans need to raise taxes. PERIOD. We need to build infrastructure and more into education otherwise we are going to irrevocably fall behind in the world even more and not be able to catch up.

HSR needs to be phased in.
1. Eliminate all grade crossings.
2. Electrify.
3. Improve track to 112 MPH.
4. Re-study any additional improvement.
By this phasing, overcommitment is avoided. Each step will be separately justified.
We are going to improve trains, so why not do so with a plan?

to those who compare us to Europe or even 3rd world countries with rail..

Um...

compare 1) population density 2) price of taxed gasoline ( Europe) 3) number of cars in population.(3rd world).

This is an absurdity for the USA where our population is not dense, we love the freedom of our cars and can afford them ( so far) and we actually have them.

I heard a guy say that we always think it is a good idea to get OTHERS of the freeways so WE can drive with less traffic. The problem is, we are all thinking the same thing.

Decreasing cars by 1% with a 200 billion dollar price tag or more by the time it done...c'mon. Be real.

Hmmm...shouldn't a rigorous report like this one have been required BEFORE we voted on the bond? What were our legislators doing ? Aren;t they the appointed watchdogs for absurdly lowballed projects like this?

Far, far too high a cost; it's time to kill this project; enough already!

I just rode the Eurostar Italia AV from Florence to Rome. Much of the area is open space, or tunnels, but when it rushed through towns the area looked like war zones, blighted, graffitied and trashed. I made a point of looking at the impact given the HSR situation here at home. I didn't vote for it, funny how giving any thought to this in the beginning made this all so very clear. Our politicians were all too busy wanting to be PC or green - but sadly were just plain stupid.

Just keep in mind that to take the HSR from SF to LA people in this area would have to drive or somehow get to SF or SJ to take the train and in PA it is closer, cheaper and easier to get to the airports.

Also, people who bought near the tracks yesterday or years ago knew Caltrain was there but never bargained for HSR running every 2 minutes bringing hoped for millions to the area.

Isn't there a basis for a lawsuit here? This proposition was sold to California voters with bogus ridership and cost estimates, invented to sell HSR to the voters. If the politicians can't/won't pull the plug on this then we should sue to annul this proposition.

I'm also curious about the 170 billion number being flung around now to help sell this turkey. Surely, that is not the number for road/airport improvements between here and LA over the next 20 years, but for the entire state in that time. Therefore the HSR money does not replace that expense.

Enough already. And to those of you whining about NIMBYs - I'm betting the train isn't going through your backyard.

common sense,

Whom do you plan to sue? yourself? think about it!

Welcome to the Third World. As the infrastructure crumbles and inequality soars, I'm sure you will enjoy the results. You can be a NIMBY to your heart's content.

I'll spell it out for you, chris. We would sue to stop the project, not for money.

Here's another new concept for you - opportunity cost. No HSR doesn't mean letting infrastructure crumble. It means investing that money in local transportation, schools and where it is really needed. Those things address inequity. A HSR system that most people don't need/can't afford does not.

To the comment about me not being a NIMBY because it isn't it my backyard, of course it isn't in my backyard, I wasn't interested in buying where I reckoned a train would be improved sometime. I could see this on the cards way back when.

But you feel free to judge others who didn't have your foresight, or more likely, your money, for living near the tracks. I'm sure if someone decided they needed your backyard for the greater good, you would be happy to give it up - not.

For someone who claims to have commonsense, I don't see signs of any.

When deciding to purchase a home, I chose a cheaper home in a neighborhood which didn't have the potential for increases in traffic, near a school or park, or the likelihood to be involved in road widening or train problems. That was common sense for me. Yes I could have had a bigger home on a busy street, but I chose against that.

As for giving up my backyard for the common good, that is unlikely although I do have two utility poles on my property. My point is that I looked at all the possible scenarios and decided that in fact the most likely thing is that I might lose my utility poles rather than lose my backyard. Unfortunately, I got it wrong and the utility wires were never put underground. My bad call on that one.

Improvements on Caltrain and more trains have always been on the cards since the beginning of Silicon Valley's growth. Taking my backyard for a reason I can't foresee is a vague possibility, but not as likely as improvements to the train right of way.

Resident-
You can't judge my common sense, because you don't know where I live. You're just assuming I live next to the tracks, which I don't.

I'm just disgusted by people calling others NIMBYs. These are the lower income people in our town who are trying to protect their homes and neighborhoods, just as you would try to protect yours if someone was about to destroy it. I guess all those farmers in the Central Valley, and high school students trying to protect their school in Bakersfield are NIMBYs too?

ps. Big homes near the tracks? Don't make me laugh.

I am not making any assumptions about anyone and I didn't use the word NIMBY about anyone except myself not being one.

Big, expensive homes near the tracks? I believe the Southgate neighborhood has some larger, expensive homes, but I don't have cause to visit there.

I think the smart thing to do is wait 20 years until our airports hit capacity and we REALLY need this, then we get to pay $300 billion.

The railroads are not going to just sit there. There will be incremental improvements as required. HSR was a grand dream. HSR incrementally accomplished makes sense. All at once, negatory.

2011: "This proposition was sold to California voters with bogus ridership and cost estimates, invented to sell HSR to the voters."

2013: "This proposition was sold to California voters with bogus benefits and cost estimates, invented to sell Measure E to the voters."

@ Robert:

In 20 years, a cost of $300 Billion might be less than the current $118 Billion estimate (that we ALL know will be exceeded) when adjusted for inflation.

I just don't see a "pressing" need -- at a time when our state is in terrible debt -- to spend $118 Billion in order to transport 20,000 people from Sacramento to Los Angeles just a little faster than traveling by car.

And, of course, the THREE AIRPORTS in this area are able to handle an increase in traffic...and airline travel will continue to be faster/safer/cheaper anyway.

This boondoggle his and always will be a feeding trough for displaced bureaucrats and other political cronies. It has been alie from the start.

How can anyone project the ridership in 30 years!

How about 100 million people a year!

And you people saying nimby's and lawsuits stopped this boondoggle, get real. It was a con from the start.

Not sure why everyone jumps on the NIMBY bandwagon on this one anymore. It's not about backyards, it's about rising costs and decreasing ridership.

This is not what anyone voted for (or against). The facts have materially changed. How can anyone say that this is what the people voted for? Put these new facts on the ballot and see what kind of support it gets, even from those living 20 miles away from the tracks.

Stop pulling the NIMBY card when it's obvious that the plan was not well thought out when it was put to the voters. It's been a disaster since the beginning. How can anyone have faith in a government that offers to buy us a diamond and then gives us a load of manure. As they say, "Don't piss in my ear and tell me it's raining."

Directed to most of the "Boondoggle" "anti-hsr" posters:

Most of you are middle aged, close to retirement, and part of the "I have mine, screw the next generation crowd". Yes, it is going to be an expensive project, and is part of the expensive process of rebuilding California for my generation, after it was destroyed by the boomer/prop 13 crowd. Fortunately we understand the need and are more than willing to pay for it, so you can kindly sit this one out.

The CA HSR project has been first, and foremost, a politically engineered transfer of wealth.  A transfer of wealth from the taxpayers of California, and the rest of the country, to the big labor groups, facilitated by Democratic Party who expects big labor to support them at the polls.  The pointless disastrous train few will ride is the necessary prop to make the process seem like a benefit to the tax payers of this state.  That the Democratic politicians of this state continue to sing the praises of the CA HSR project, even when confronted with the disastrous fiscal reality presented before them, is a testament to what is wrong and broken with the political process in this country.  

It is time to defund, strip away any legal authority from the massively incompetent CA HSR Authority, and terminate the project.  It is also time to replace clearly self-serving politicians (Obama, Feinstein, Boxer, Eshoo, Brown, and other numerous politicians in Sacramento) at the polls.  The politics supporting and driving the CA HSR project makes the Tea Party seem like a rather reasonable bunch.  Consider the nearly $1B already squandered on this project a bitter pill, compared to the hundreds of billions of dollars of crushing debt and interest the CA HSR Authority proposes to burden the citizens of this state with for decades to come.  The several billion dollars that will need to be returned to the US Treasury for not starting construction of the rail line in the Central Valley, a blatant effort by the Obama Administration using tax dollars to re-elect Jim Costa (Kings County and parts of Fresno and Kern Counties) in a tough 2010 race, is an excellent example of the cost of political greed caught in the glaring spot light of truth.

And what does Obama think of the Californian's that are concerned and/or opposed to the high speed rail project in California? Not much. Ray LaHood, Obama's transportation mouthpiece, was quoted during a press conference in Sacramento that Californian's are clamoring for speedy trains - despite the growing grumbles of discontent from various pockets of the state, including the Peninsula. "We are not going to be dissuaded by a little background noise of criticism because there is a loud, loud amount of support for high-speed rail in California." So, in a nut shell, that's Obama telling everyone in CA opposed to the train to F - off, and thanks for your tax dollars.

Trying to get some perspective on this big number. At a wage of $100,000 per year, $100B pays for one million years. Or 50,000 people working for 20 years.

Much of the amount will be spent on materials and components, but that money is also just the wages of people (not necessarily Californians) who mine, process, fabricate and transport such items.

Wonder what was spent from both ends getting to Promontory Point? (In man-hours, because the current value of those land giveaways would really distort things.) No direct comparison implied, just musing on historical precedents. Were the Native Americans ever called NIMBYs?

Who will travel to LA? The rider estimates are based on what?
This is not Europe or Asia. No resemblance as far as mass transportation
pre-conditions.

> Who will travel to LA?
> The rider estimates are based on what?

Great questions. We know how many people travel to LA using cars, and airplanes, today. So, will the ridership of the HSR be "new" traffic, or will it be "captured" from the car/air traffic? There has always seemed to be an undercurrent of "we need to get people out of their cars and airplanes" at work here.

European tourists might be inclined to take the train, transferring the capital costs of their tickets to the California taxpayers. But not having an HSR does not seem to have kept European, or Asian, tourists from visiting California.

And then there is the ever-evolving world of the Internet, which is now offering business better-than-ever high-speed communications--including video conferencing software that can reduce the need for a lot of business travel. The cost to the general economy to support increased broadband coverage is a lot less than the drag on the economy to pay for the hidden taxes that the current business model for HSR requires.

Let's hope that a re-vote makes it to the ballot before any significant amount of money is spent. This bad idea needs to be put down, and soon.

In its present form, HSR here is dead in the water.

Follow the money.

No entities -- public or private -- will finance this project. At these costs, the State will be unable to carry this burden by itself.

Absent a significant amount of new debt, where's the money?

How about a re-do vote on every public works scheme? Methinks the Big Dig would not have survived such a reappraisal.

> How about a re-do vote on every public works scheme?

As the cost of publicly-funded "public works" projects increases, it makes sense to have at least two, and perhaps three, votes to insure that the projects are needed, feasible, and well-managed. No one in his right mind commits $100B (or more) on a single "vote". The HSR was oversold by zealots, and the truth has caught up with these people.

Time to shut them with the same political process that started them up.

In a poll the voters in Simitian's district voted 2 to 1 in a poll AGAINST going forward with this boondoggle project if the final cost of the project is unknown and if the source of the money to pay for it (not to mention the annual operating budget) is unknown. Joe Simitian knows this result. Yet, because he's so enamoured of his "blended system" idea (which would still be above ground and wreak harm on communities along the right of way) and because Democratic governor Jerry Brown is so beholden to the construction unions that he's stubbornly STILL backing the HSR project -- so much for Jerry's self-ballowhooed new candor and making all but essential cuts in government spending to keep the deficit from getting even worse -- Joe Simitian refuses to disown this project and makes equivocal statements about his position on it. Joe is not as progressive and candid as he'd like us to believe and is not courageous enough to stand up and say "NO!" when Jerry Brown is still supporting it.

Robert: No, we are not part of the "I have mine, screw the next generation" crowd. We are part of the "stop enslaving our children to the foolish dreams of leftists" crowd.

If you are one of the "younger" generation who isn't yet paying taxes, one day when you are an adult and paying taxes, you will thank us for not enslaving you yet further than you already are to the "dreams of your fathers".

@Perspective

No you're wrong. I am already paying taxes on the FULL value of my house, just like your children will have to (do you?). And yet, I'm sure you still have some long winded explanation of how you don't want to leave a tax burden on your children. Sorry, but actions are louder than words.

Spending $100 billion (or more likely, $200-$400 billion) to achieve next to nothing is a plan that only a lunatic or a corrupt politician could support. Unfortunately, in California we have an ample supply of both.

Look behind the curtain: THERE IS NO TRAIN!

Never was never will be.

There is just a gravy train for whoever gets a paycheck from the 1st wasted billion.

It's a con people, and we are the marks.

If the report teaches us anything at all, it's that HSR must be built SOONER rather than LATER before the costs get even higher.

No San Jose on the list?

Anyway, wow 41 million riders per year.

The largest TGV in France seats 750.

These projections are claiming 150 absolutely full, giant trains per DAY to reach that number of yearly passengers.

Absolutely impossible.

I voted for the train the first time. I won't vote for it again until becomes realistic.

Do the math people. This is not going to be what the proponents say it will be.

The Authority 'fessing up to triple the original costs is still little better than a convict's teatimony as a witness at a trial. "We really mean it now" is not a number you can trust. These same people using numbers of how much new roads and runways cost [are we to trust these numbers too?] instead of Rail doesn't legitimize their own phony costs or ridership numbers. Voters need the chance to vote on the truth and reflect on our state's dire fiscal effects on schools, law enforcement and the road work that still needs to be done anyway. Join ReVoteTheRailCa on Twitter and Citizens for California High Speed Rail Accountability on FaceBook and get the grassroots going on this issue.

It's good to see that there are still a few BIMBYs (brainless in my backyard) in Paly that will support any form of boondoggle that is foisted upon them.

Pointless analogies with countries that have totally different transportation dynamics and still require massive amounts of public subsidy are the true refuge of fools.

False promises of non-existent environmental benefits as symptomatic of the same.

Have the state issue on RFP or RFI for the project and open it up to other forms of transportation. Why does it have to be 19th century rail?

Isn't California the center of innovation?