"Convicted terrorism conspirator Jose Padilla"

The operative word is "convicted".

John Yoo understands context. Padillia was helping al qaeda. He put his own country in his cross hairs, becasue he hated his country. He WAS an enemy combatant.

Thank you, John Yoo. Our region is much better for having you here.

ABSOLUTELY!! Treason,treason, treason...

This is yet more harrassment by the left in government, instead of doing the work of the country.

There you go again, Gary, the operative word at the time of the memos was "suspected," not convicted. And even that wasn't the operative word. What this is about is the dubious legal interpretations of Mr.Yoo. And don't give me your blather about waterboarding not being torture because it works -- that's false logic, and I think you know it.

And, "thanks Gary," I'm puzzled. What do you mean by "the left in government"? There is no left is the current administration. I'm not even sure they have left hands.

"And don't give me your blather about waterboarding not being torture because it works"

Peter, Padilla, as an irregular enemy combatant against this country, should have been waterboarded, in order to gain as much information as possible. The U.S. would probably have been perfectly legal to do so. It might have saved a lot of innocent lives, if it was done soon enough.

BTW, Peter, are you admitting that waterboarding works?

Gary needs to submit as a subject to a waterboarding session, so that he can see for himself if the "torture" classification is justified.

"Gary needs to submit as a subject to a waterboarding session, so that he can see for himself if the "torture" classification is justified."

If I did, Patriot, would that prove that torture works?

Not really, because you'd sell your grandmother down the river (just as everyone subjected to waterboarding would) to keep from drowning. And, you'd probably break down sooner than most.

btw, thanks for finally admitting that waterboarding is torture.

After your session, imagine American soldiers and others being put to this torture, as payback for your challenged parsing of what the words "human rights" means. Think then about who torture would "work" for, as you put it.

I'm always sadly amused by those who get macho about torture - even people who have served in the military. Most of these people know nothing about torture; it's just an academic exercise to discuss torture, or a means to fulfill some self-deluded fantasy about how "tough" they are, as they imagine turning their suppressed anger into something real, at the expense of the suffering subject.

Torture is only supported by those too weak to imagine other means, and is essentially a projection of their personal anger on on diffuse subject - someone known only in the abstract.

Hitler loved animals.

Right, Patriot...and you, I presume, understand "torture" by the US? I would rather be "tortured" by the US than by any other country, thank you!!!


As for "other means"..umm..like what? What, exactly, do you think would be as effective in preventing your loved ones from being blown up if you have someone in your home who knows how to prevent it?

I am quite convinced that the CIA is not interested in an al qaeda thug's grandmother. They much prefer the names of the thug's fellow thugs, and their leaders (and where they live). Published reports say that waterboarding gets that kind of information in an amazngly short period of time. Doesn't leave any marks and can be plausibly denied. What's not to like about it?

Gary--what you are saying goes against everything that the US stands for (Doesn't leave any marks and can be plausibly denied). It is really shocking how our guiding principals and everything I thought we have stood for have been destroyed in the last 8 years by the Bush/Cheney regime. And what is worse is that it is supported by people like you, who are apparently scared shitless by some guy in a cave in Afghanistan.

BTW, what ever happened with the dirty bomb charges against Padilla?
Since he was tried in a US court, it seems that he was not considered an enemy combatant, since I thought enemy combatants were not allowed to be tried by our justice system and were entitled to any constitutional rights according the Herren Bush and Cheney.
In the end he was convicted on conspiracy charges, correct?

Arrest,

You live in a country that was founded by a guy that hanged volunteer soldiers for wanting to go home, after their formal commitment had ended, to their families. He also threatened to hang them if they stole food, for their starving bellies, from farmers (who were otherwise selling it to the British). His name was George Washington. He was later praised for his moral leadership.

Padilla is an al qaeda punk that got caught. He was given up by Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (that waterboarding is GREAT stuff!), in 2002. His mission was to target up to three high-rise buildings that use natural gas with a radiological "dirty bomb." Khalid sang in time, so Padilla was stopped. Dang, that waterboarding is cool!

The government pursued the path of least damage with Padilla, in its legal case. If it tried him for the dirty bomb stuff, in a civilian court, it would need to give up sensitive intelligence to the defense lawyers. It chose, instead, to go with conspiracy charges, and it prevailed. Padilla will probably be in the slammer for quite a while. I hope he dies there.


Arrest, you need to go take a clue pill.

I should have mentioned this guy:

Web Link

If he happens to get caught, he should be kept alive for a Waterboarding 201 session. He has valuable information to give. Once he sings (probably within 2 hours), it doesn;t really matter what happends to him. Maybe just release him back into Pakistan. His al qaeda buddies will know what to do with a canary.

Gary--gary love the way you spin things to suit your purposes and/or play with the facts in order. So really Padilla is not an enemy combatant and the judge in his trial threw a number of the indictments. But I am sure you will find a new way to spin all this also for your benefit

[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Arrest,

The reason that guy stays in a cave is becasue he fears we will waterboard his friends, in order to get at him. If we do get him alive, that would be a waterboarding 301 session.

No, Arrest, I do not enjoy torture. I even have some issues with waterboarding, which is a marginal example of torture. I support its use, selectively, for al qaeda thugs, in order to get important information. No need for battery acid enemas. I do not support waterboarding as a general police interrogation technique, although there are certainly times when it migh save a few lives. I reserve it for the CIA and (possibly) military interrogators, where thousands of lives are at stake.

The fight against al qaeda is a war, not a legal criminal affair. Clinton treated it as the latter, and we suffered 9-11 for that huge mistake. Clinton now supports waterboarding, under 'ticking bomb' situations. Too bad he didn't support it when he had the power to gain the information to prevent 9-11. Some people say he was distracted by Monica, but I think he was prisioner of his own misperceptions...just like you.

The best solution moving forward is not to take any prisoners, just kill them in action ,as we did with Japanese in WW2

Gary: "You live in a country that was founded by a guy that hanged volunteer soldiers for wanting to go home, after their formal commitment had ended, to their families. He also threatened to hang them if they stole food, for their starving bellies, from farmers (who were otherwise selling it to the British). His name was George Washington. He was later praised for his moral leadership."

We also live in a country where (thankfully) only a few people pay any attention to the extracted snippets of the worst moments of our great heros, and use those snippets as a way to rationalize generally bad behavior.

Anyone who thinks that torture should be generally accepted is projecting a pretty dark inner life, and should not be trusted with the long-term well-being of, at the very least, a child - and at the very most, an entire nation.

Torturers are sick puppies.

"snippets of the worst moments of our great heros, and use those snippets as a way to rationalize generally bad behavior."

Then why are you dumping on Bush for using the necessary, rare and selective methods to win this war against the Islamists? Washington won the Revolution by being tough (few understand how tough he was, as a general). Lincoln understood what was necessary. So does Bush. Unfortunately, you do not.

George Bush is no Abe Lincoln. I challenge you to compare Bush to Lincoln in a favorable light - just be sure you have a clear path to escape whatever room you're telling that story in. :) - - and do wear something that is egg-proof

btw, Bush is consistent in his bad behavior. What's even more trragic about Bush is that he really is quite a smart man, but to say he's very challenged in his current post is quite the understatement. He is easily the worst president in our nation's history.

MIT has a blog site which shuts down every discussion after a short time because after a few days there are only left the nutcases.

Perhaps my posting here qualifies me as a nutcase also, but it is clear to me that this is degenerating into a conversation between a well informed person and a few others who aren't.

I won't check it anymore, but I wonder if PA Online would consider simply putting a time limit on all threads to keep them from degerating, as so many of these topics do, into simple silliness?

Perspective,

Interesting. I could didn't find any of the participants well informed.