Anyone out there still think the Vatican knew nothing about this whole scandal? Benedict is guilty of complicity in trying to cover up the crimes of these disgusting clergymembers and should spend the rest of his days in prison. The previous pope, John Paul II also must have had knowledge of what was going on and this will surely tranish his overrated reputation--no sainthood for him.
The church is finished--they tried to cover up horrific crimes against the most innocent members of our society and they all must pay the price now for their evil acts. the chickens have come home to roost. No priest or nun can ever be trusted again--if they were not directly involved in these crimes, they knew they were happeneing and either aided in the cover up or kept quiet--either way they are guilty.

Are church employees required to go through the same background checks as school employees? If not, why not?

I think the current church problems are not just caused by rogue priests. The bigger problem is their superiors who intentionally ignored the problem or, much worse, covered it up or even encouraged it by moving moving suspected predators to new and unsuspecting parishes.

Disclaimer - I am not Catholic.

The question arises as to the wisdom of enforced celibacy. In many good catholic families in Ireland and Italy, the 2nd son or 2nd daughter were destined for the church from birth. It was a sign that the family was a good catholic family if one of the string of children took the vow. Sometimes, these destined children had very little option but to enter the church and made the decision before they were old enough to really understand the ramifications of their decision.

The question of enforced celibacy did not occur until 6th or 7th century as many of the earlier monks and nuns married and raised their children in the convents. The celibacy issue came about as a controversial addendum well after the catholic church was established and before Rome was the recognised supreme power of the church.

The Bible does not have much to say on the subject. St. Paul does not appear to have been married after his conversion, but he may have been at some stage. He does say about marriage that it is better not to have the responsibility of marriage to do God's work, but that if the individual cannot control his urges then it is better for him to marry than to live with the unsatisfied urge.

So the question remains, does the church attract those with a tendency for pedophilia, or does the enforced state of celibacy make pedophiles out of those who would not otherwise have this tendency? Is it a chicken and the egg scenario?

I'm sorry to have to say this as I used to be Catholic and found some wonderful things in the church community and traditions, along with many well intentioned people doing their best to live a good life. But this pedophilia and corruption are not separate from those in power within the church. Pedophilia and many forms of abuse, including the perpetual denigration and oppression of women, are built in to church at the most basic level. I agree that it's chronic, and that the church is obsolete. Anyone who has risen to the top of this rotten hierarchy must be as rotten as any part of it.

Pedophilia is a relatively small issue in the Catholic Church. Most victims have been pubescent of post-pubescent. The problem is homosexuality. The Church knows that homosexual priests are very abundant in their ranks, yet it is too afraid of losing priests, if it cracks down to eliminate "sins against nature".

A more proper title for this thread by Paul Losch would be " Catholic Church, Priests and Homosexuality"


Web Link

"In many ways, the Catholic Church is obsolete."
I would go further; religion is obsolete. We now understand lightning, thunder and the change of the seasons. We don't need religious mysticism to "explain" things. Nor do we need dogmatic moral commandments from some old text.

Why is the NYT dragging up a case from 36 years ago?Web Link

It appears to be about money for lawyers

"? The New York Times story had two sources.
First, lawyers who currently have a civil suit pending against the Archdiocese of Milwaukee. One of the lawyers, Jeffrey Anderson, also has cases in the United States Supreme Court pending against the Holy See. He has a direct financial interest in the matter being reported.

? The second source was Archbishop Rembert Weakland, retired archbishop of Milwaukee. He is the most discredited and disgraced bishop in the United States, widely known for mishandling sexual-abuse cases during his tenure, and guilty of using $450,000 of archdiocesan funds to pay hush money to a former homosexual lover who was blackmailing him. Archbishop Weakland had responsibility for the Father Murphy case between 1977 and 1998, when Father Murphy died.
He has long been embittered that his maladministration of the Archdiocese of Milwaukee earned him the disfavor of Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, long before it was revealed that he had used parishioners? money to pay off his clandestine lover.
He is prima facie not a reliable source."

Sexual abuse of adolescents is beneath contempt-- unless it is committed by Roman Polanski of course--then all of Hollywood and French intellectuals defend his behavior.

Compare the sexual abuse rates by teachers, other denominations, police officers etc-- the catholic church is not exceptional--

There seems to be some other agenda here, in addition to profit by trial lawyers, who else benefits by attempts to discredit the catholic church?

"Compare the sexual abuse rates by teachers, other denominations, police officers etc-- the catholic church is not exceptional"

Homosexual abuse of adolescent boys is a real issue in the Catholic Church. There may be other institutions with similar problem, but where is the evidence? If you are making the case that heterosexual priests, who abuse teenege girls, is about equal to other instituions, I could see that possibly being true. The main issue with the Church is that homosexual priests have access to a ready supply of teenage boys, and to each other.

The problem is not homosexuality. I read just as many reports about priests assaulting girls (or even grown women) as boys. Do you remember the scandal about dead babies being found in the basements of convents in Europe? Who do you think the fathers were?

"I read just as many reports about priests assaulting girls (or even grown women) as boys".

I haven't. Could you provide some reports that back up your point, and that resulted in major lawsuits and scandals in recent times?

yes the problem was with incidents involving adolescent boys, that was not pedophilia.
The RC church has cleaned house and solved the problem years ago.

The Boy Scouts, other denominations, public schools, police departments, medical clinics, psychotherapists, sports coaches, actors, the film industry, UN agencies and NGOs etc all attract similar rates
of predators who go after adolescent males and females.
In the RC case 90% + involved adolescent males, many of these cases would not be illegal under European age of consent laws.
The RC church keeps very good records and has lots of assets-- so the trial attorneys go after them-- deep pockets etc

They do not go after individual teachers, scout leaders, police officers, actors etc because the pockets are no so deep and the records are not centralized.

But something else is going on--
eg CNNs Anderson Cooper had Sinead O'Connor on his show to inflame and defame the RCs-- she is viciously anti catholic, a lesbian activists who claims to be an ordained catholic priest and she is under treatment for severe bipolar illness.

Why would Anderson Cooper have her on his show? she has no credibility and she has an agenda

Something else is going on here---

We will see attacks on the Mormons and Orthodox Jews next--- what do they have in common?

What is the agenda here?

"We will see attacks on the Mormons and Orthodox Jews next--- what do they have in common?"

I am not aware of homosexual predation being a big issue with the Mormons and Orthodox Jews. Am I wrong?

I am neither anti-religion nor anti-Cathlolic. I am just clarifying what the real issue is with the Catholic Church and these recent major sex scandals. It is homoseuxality, not pedophilia. Furthermore, I would say that it is particular, at least by degree, to the Catholic Church.

Wow. You people in Palo Alto really do think you are at the center of the world.

A report commissioned by the Education Department under the No Child Left Behind act, shows that roughly 4.5 million (that?s right, million) students were sexually harassed or abused during the course of the last decade in the public school system.

Roughly ten percent of school officials are believed to be molesters, and this number is believed to be low due to reporting bias.

Again--CNNs Anderson Cooper had Sinead O'Connor on his show to inflame and defame the RCs-- she is viciously anti catholic, a lesbian activists who claims to be an ordained catholic priest and she is under treatment for severe bipolar illness.

Why would Anderson Cooper have her on his show? she has no credibility and she has an agenda

Something else is going on here--- what is Anderson Coopers and others real agenda in this matter?

We understand the trial lawyers want the deep pocket money

But their is clearly another agenda being promoted here and it is not the old " Know Nothing" Web Link prejudice

What is it?

I lived in the midwest for 21 years around conservative Catholics and Christians and found the hypocrisy to be disgusting. So many passive-aggressive people because they are followers in their churches. So they take it out on others who are outside of their church. But are they really followers? Do they live as good people? No, they just think they will get to Heaven because they are affiliated with church and they can do as they please. Bogus.

The biggest joke is that people believe what they want from religion and they still all think they are going to Heaven. Who's to say who is right?

Why don't we have a bandwagon to jump on for other groups of males that have twice the pedophilia rate of Catholic priests ( or any religious group male leaders)?


Or is it just more comfortable on a bandwagon?

Not wanting to go into which groups have twice the pedophilia rate, because I certainly don't want to diminish the seriousness of even ONE case of pedophilia anywhere, nor build a bonfire fire and carry pitchforks against other groups, I will leave it up to the anyone who actually cares to do the research.

I will only add that priests have 1/2 the rate of pedophilia of the non-priest population. So, kids are still statistically safer with priests than with the general population.

In the meantime, here is a link to Myths about Priestly pedophilia for anyone who cares to read it. Yes, it is by Catholics, who did you expect it to be by?

Web Link

Fundamentalist atheist hatred of Christianity may be part of it, in addition to lawyers looking for money.

However-- something else is going on here--

The NYT drags up a case from 36 yrs ago---- pushed by a lawyer who has a financial interest in attacking the Catholic Church.

They quote ex bishop weakland ----- who had responsibility for the matter for 20+yrs, he was fired by the church years ago for stealing $1/2 Million of Church funds to pay off his homosexual ex partner.

The case is Andrew Sullivan's latest obsession Web Link -- after Israel, Palin, circumcision, etc---

CNNs Anderson Cooper uses his soap box to feature a mentally ill and viciously Anti Catholic Sinead O'Connor on the matter.

What is the real agenda here?

This is an ongoing problem that the church has trie dto sweep under the rug for years. Now it has finally caughtup withthem and it goes right to the top--benedict is involved as an accessory after the fact.
These people are supposed to be spiritual leaders, yet they have abused and violated the most innocent and vulnerable. Rather than deal with the proble, Benedict and his cadre of bishops and cradinals have tried to silence the victims. Shame on them. They have aided pedophiles--who knows if benedict himself is not a pedophile either. We have cases in the USA, Ireland, Italey, Germany etc. The shocking incidents involving the deaf children in Wisconsin is heart-wrenching.
Yet the church has the nerve to set itself up as a moral authority and lecture us on what is right and wrong!!!
Yet, there are some people on this thread who are blaming everyone (the Times, Lawyers, Anderson Cooper, Sinead O'Connor, homosexuals etdc.) but the church themslevs and are busy making excuses for this despicable behavior which involves every clergyman in one way or another.
Any case of child molestation/abuse should ne prosecuted and those guilty puton trial. What some people seem to forget is that the church is supposed to be a religious organization and it's leaders should be held to a higher standard. This is not about money, it is about justice.
Shame on the catholic church and shame on those who try to excuse that behavior.

"other groups of males that have twice the pedophilia rate of Catholic priests "

That may well be true. Pedophilia is not a big problem in the Catholic Church, despite the best efforts of some, like Paul Losch, to make it seem so.

The big problem of sexual abuse in the Church is homosexual priests abusing adolescent boys. The priesthood is disproportionately homosexual, and a significant percentage of these priests are attracted to young boys. It is that simple.

The term "pedophilia" should be dropped from the discussion.

The Roman Catholic church is excoriated for pedophilia, but the Scouts are driven out of Palo Alto because of their attempts to protect boys from molestation. Not too long ago, molestation of boys was no big deal - jokes about boys and priests, headmasters and other authority figures were rife - the expression rum, sodomy and the lash was not drawn from thin air. Since boys did not get pregnant they were considered fair game in some circles. Not all homosexuals are pedophiles, nor are all pedophiles homosexual, but all male pedophiles who molest boys are by definition homosexuals. That is not ALL they are but they are that.

Gene and Walter are stretching to try to pin the blame on homosexuals. Pedophiles and homosexuals are two, different distinct groups. The priests that are abusing boys are pedophiles. By Walter's definition a priest who molests a girl is a heterosexual, like gene and himself.
Gene does not think that pedophilia is a big problem for the church? How about if we re-phrase it to the continued abuse and molestation of innocent boys and girls by priests over the years is a problem. As is the fact that these criminal acts were not referred to the authorities and were covered up by men at the highest levels of the church

Here is a link by America's leading excuse maker for the catholic church:

Web Link

"The priests that are abusing boys are pedophiles"

No, they are not!

They are homosexuals who have access to post-pubescent boys. Pedophilia is an act against prepubesent kids, and it a very different disorder.

The issue with the Catholic Church is homosexual priests abusing adolescnet boys, NOT pedophilia. It is important to understand what is really going on, or it cannot, and will not, be fixed.

Probably the majority of homosexual priests are not interested in abusing those boys at their disposal, but enough of them do...that is why there is a very costly problem for the Church.

This is not about homosexuals or your attempts to tar them with the same brush used to paint the catholic clergy as pedophiles:

Web Link
"Pedophilia is a paraphilia that involves an abnormal interest in children.
and
"Many courts interpret this reference to age to mean children under the age of 18."

But if you want to re-phrase it, then this issue is about predatory priests engaging in the abuse of children of all ages, with the help, knowledge and covering up of the crimes by of the members of the church.
Or if you want to rephrase it again, then we have a case in Wisconsin of a priest molesting 200+ boys
(Web Link Shall we find out the exact age of each boy to determine if this is a case of "pedophilia or not?

Call it what you want. But do not try to focus the blame on homosexuals. Homosexuals are not pedophiles and they do not molest boys.
Either way your attempted defense of these perverts, found at every level of the church clergy, is lacking. Plus it sounds exceedingly familiar to a defense written on another thread by another inflammatory poster.

"Homosexuals are not pedophiles and they do not molest boys."

I agree with the first part, but not, necessarily the second part. Homosexuals are probably no more interested in pedophilia than heterosexuals. Pedophilia is a very distinct disorder, involving interest in prepubescent children. It has little or nothing to do with the current Church quagmire, which is homosexual priests being attracted to post-pubescent boys.

This is definitely an issue of homosexuality, and not pedophilia. Why? Because the vast majority of complaints are coming from men who were abused when they were adolescent, postpubescent boys, and they have accused priests, not nuns.


Until the Church acts according to its own laws, and forbids homosexuals from becoming priests, this problem will continue to manifest itself. The Church has allowed its priesthood to become disproportionately homosexual. The Church has pretended that it can distinguish between homosexual 'orientation' and homosexual 'activity', despite very clear evidence that homosexual activity is rampant in the priesthood, especially in the seminaries. All of this despite the vow of chastity.

Roman Polanski sexually assaulted and drugged a 13 yrs old girl,
In 1976, Polanski started a romantic relationship with Nastassja Kinski, when she was 15 years old and he was 43 years old.

Hollywood and the French intellectuals howl that he is being victimized by a Calvinistic and unjust CA legal system---- double standard?

We agree with "Gene, a resident of the Old Palo Alto neighborhood"
the RC Church had a serious problem with homosexual priests molesting adolescent boys.
They have taken action and it has not happened since they did.
The Boy Scouts had a serious problem with homosexual scout leaders molesting adolescent boys, they took action to protect the boys and got massive activists attacks.

The key issue is the protection of our kids-- in the past the RC Church got bad psychological advice on how to deal with pederasts Web Link

The RC Church has now adopted different approaches-- these should be adopted by school districts, psychotherapist licensing organizations, police departments,Rabbis, Imams,ministers, politicians and other groups that have trusted access to our kids.

Still,--- why are Anderson Cooper and Andrew Sullivan trying to defame the RC Church

What is their agenda?

In response to the question of "what else is happening here?" re: this constant attack on JUST the catholic church

Web Link

Above is a link to a report of our FBI ( Fed Govt..) conducting a raid on a Christian "terror" group here.

Ok..let's count the number of Christian terrorists and Christian terrorist attacks in this country or abroad in the last 15 years...

anybody have even ONE finger up?

Ok..NOW does everyone have a clue about what is happening?

The issue is catholic clergy molesting and abusing mainly boys--call it pedophilia, call it whatever you want. It is a heinous crime committed by perverts with the knowledge of many in the church and this matter was then covered up by the higher ups. This issue is not about homosexuality. You can quibble all you want about the boys being pre-pubescent or post-pubescent (although we know that boys of all ages were molested by these scum), that is irrelevant and attempt to turn the spotlight away from these heinous acts, while trying to implicate "homosexuals" as the culprits.
The difference between Polanski, the boy scouts and the disgusting actions of the Catholic church--Polanski and the Boy Scout leaders (though there number does not even come close to the despicable actions of the catholic clergy and is just another red herring put out by Sharon/Gene) is that Polanski and the Boys Scout leaders were not shielded by higher ups and were prosecuted.
The stench from this pedophile scandal now has reached the highest levels of the Vatican. Both benedict and john paul II are implicated in this cover up.
Equally shameful is the attempt by some posters to blame "homosexuals" and claim that this issue is not "pedophilia" (as if the fact that the abuse/molestation of post-pubescent boys mitigates the revolting nature of the actions of these degenerate "men of god").

Sex acts between people of the same gender are homosexual by definition. 50 years ago sex lay between adults and late teen boys was considered illegal but for some, just "naughty". Hey, remember, Lolita was received enthusiastically by almost everyone but fathers of teenage girls, Brando did something in Paris, Errol Flynn skated and Polanski scooted.
As bad as pederasty is, murder is worse and yet those who would cast the Church into the outer darkness make heroes out of murderers
Selective outrage, gimme a break. Bring back proportionality.

"Sex acts between people of the same gender are homosexual by definition."

Spin it any way you want, Walter. I think the actions of the catholic church speak for themselves with regard to these despicable acts

"50 years ago sex lay between adults and late teen boys was considered illegal but for some, just "naughty". "

You may consider it "naughty", but it was illegal back then just as it is illegal now and we all know that these acts involved more than late teen boys.
I find it shocking that some people are busy making excuses for deviant behavior by degenerates, instead of seeing that these people are made to answer for their crimes.
As usual, Walter, you paint everyone with the same broad brush.

The measures put in place by the RC Church have been spectacularly effective in protecting children, the problem----" seems to have virtually disappeared (six credible cases of clerical sexual abuse in 2009 were reported in the RC U.S. bishops? annual audit, in a Church of some 65,000,000 members).

"The sexual and physical abuse of children and young people is a global plague; its manifestations run the gamut from fondling by teachers to rape by uncles to kidnapping-and-sex-trafficking.
In the United States alone, there are reportedly some 39 million victims of childhood sexual abuse.
Forty to sixty percent were abused by family members, including stepfathers and live-in boyfriends of a child?s mother?thus suggesting that abused children are the principal victims of the sexual revolution, the breakdown of marriage, and the hook-up culture.
Hofstra University professor Charol Shakeshaft reports that 6-10 percent of public school students have been molested in recent years?some 290,000 between 1991 and 2000.
According to other recent studies, 2 percent of sex abuse offenders were Catholic priests?a phenomenon that spiked between the mid-1960s and the mid-1980s but seems to have virtually disappeared (six credible cases of clerical sexual abuse in 2009 were reported in the U.S. bishops? annual audit, in a Church of some 65,000,000 members).Web Link



Still wondering----

why are Anderson Cooper and Andrew Sullivan trying to defame the RC Church ?

What is their agenda?

"This issue is not about homosexuality".

Yes it is. The technical term is ephebophilia, which is sexual attraction between adults and post-pubescent adolescents. It can be either heterosexual or homosexual, but in this Catholic Church scandal it is overwhelmingly homosexual.

Ephebophilia is not generally considered a psychological disorder, and it has benn accepted by various societies over the centuries. However, in some societies, it violates the age of consent laws, and is thus statutory rape.

The Church allows the foxes to guard the chickens. What does it expect?

"The measures put in place by the RC Church have been spectacularly effective in protecting children, the problem----" seems to have virtually disappeared "

Nice spin, Sharon. The problem is still there--I am sure that the church wishes that all the poor victims who have been abused over the years would disappear.
The catholic church still refuses to even admit that there is a problem--probably because of the degenerates who are running the church from the vatican. There is plenty of evidence to show that benedict knew when he was a cardinal and told priests not to report these issues to the proper authorities (the church obviously feels that they are above the law.

What Sharon seems to ignore is that while sexual abuse of children is a problem, so-called men of god are held to a higher standard. Aren't these children the innocents that should be protected? Yet, for years and years these children have been the victims not only of predatory clergymen, but also of their associates and higher ups who have tried to cover up their deviant behavior, without any concern for the victims. Two wrongs do not make a right--while sexual abuse of children does occur, it usually is prosecuted when brought to light except when it involves the catholic church.
Citing numbers about sexual abuse etc. does not absolve the degenerates in the catholic church from responsibility for their heinous acts

"Still wondering----
why are Anderson Cooper and Andrew Sullivan trying to defame the RC Church ?
What is their agenda?"

Cooper and Sullivan are not defaming the church--the church is doing it themselves, as their disgusting actions are brought to light. Their agenda may be to see that justice is finally done and that the leaders are made to pay the price for their acts of malfeasance.

"Ephebophilia is not generally considered a psychological disorder, and it has benn accepted by various societies over the centuries. However, in some societies, it violates the age of consent laws, and is thus statutory rape. "

Gene continues to try to cloud the issue by claiming this is not pedophilia--now he introduces the term "ephebophilia" and claims over and over that these acts involved post-pubescent adolescents--as if this is some excuse for these degenerate priests.
I think that the records are clear that young children (pre-pubescent) were also victims of these predatory degenerates. Either way these were unnatural, illegal acts forced upon innocent children. Trying to spin it away with claims of "homosexual acts", "post-pubescent boys" and "accepted by various societies" is bogus and shows that the supporters of the church do not have a leg to stand on---they are trying to excuse despicable acts committed by "men of god". There excuse making is shameful.

Not a catholic,

You can continue to insist that the problem is not homosexuality, but you are wrong.

I am not a Catholic, nor am I anti-Catholic. I am not even religious, but I do not oppose those who are.

The nearly spectactular lenghts that some pople will go to protect homosexuals in the Church is amazing. You are one of them.

This issue with the Church is about homosexual priests hitting on adolescent boys. It is not a shocking thing, in fact, it should be an expected thing, given that chastity is an ideal, not a reality.

It is ironic that a Church, which defines homosexuality as objectively disorded, continues to allow homsoexual priests. It is even worse that it allow such priests to have access to adolescent boys.

"The nearly spectactular lenghts that some pople will go to protect homosexuals in the Church is amazing. You are one of them. "

Oh, I see, we are now playing "copy cat".
I am not doing anything to protect homosexuals in the church. I am urging for the prosecution of all those priests that have been involved in the pedophillia/child abuse/whatever you want to call it scandals as well as those that helped cover it up--regardless of their sexual orientation.
You are going down the road that others go--trying to blame this on homosexuals. Homosexuals are not pedophiles--this has nothing to do with homosexuals--this has to do with deviant pedophiles masquerading as men of god.

"This issue with the Church is about homosexual priests hitting on adolescent boys."
I guess you feel if you say this enough times it will become true--the issue is about degenerate priests sexually abusing, molesting, raping etc innocent children. i think the fact has been well established that many of these children were pre-pubescent (put that again has nothing to do with the issue) and even if they were not, it is still against the law to sexually abuse,molest and/or rape anyone.
These degenerates committed these heinous crimes. Their superiors tried to cover it up--even ordering clergymen not to report said crimes to the proper authorities. The moral bankruptcy of the catholic church knows no bounds--at least two popes are involved and the church will no longer stand as a moral authority given their lack of morals, ethics and any kind of display of empathy for the victims of their degenerate members

Gene, some reading material for you:

Web Link
"The latest revelations about sexual abuse against children by Roman Catholic priests are nothing short of revolting. The story of Father Lawrence Murphy, who abused more than 200 deaf boys in Milwaukee over decades, despite the boys' speaking out and calling for help, should outrage us all."

Web Link
""Celibacy has nothing to do with the sexual abuse of minors," Cardinal Walter Kasper said amid calls for the Church to rethink the tradition.

"Pedophilia has no connection with the very old tradition that prevents priests from marrying," the German cardinal said in an interview with the Italian daily La Stampa published Monday.'

(Note Gene, that this cardinal uses the terms "sexual abuse of minors" and pedophilia)

Web Link
"The unofficial poster boy for priest pedophilia was a Boston priest named Father John Geoghan. He became a symbol for everything the church had done wrong in handling this problem when, on Jan. 6, 2002, The Boston Globe broke the story about how Boston's archbishop, Cardinal Bernard Law, had moved the abusive Geoghan from parish to parish over the years."
"Patrick McSorley, 12 years old at the time he was abused by Geoghan, as saying he ''began suffering anxiety attacks and depression'' after the priest violated him. "

There is plenty more out there Gene/Sharon.

Not a catholic,

Here is some inside skinny on the deal:

"The mass exodus of priests in the 1960s and 1970s who then married was not matched by an exodus of the homophilic oriented priests, thus increasing the percentage of homophiles in the church. The church has been so panic-stricken by this growing minority that when the late Boston Cardinal Humberto Medeiros tried to remove the Reverend Paul Shanley from his high-profile Boston street ministry because of Shanley's repeated acts of pedophilia, he hesitated. Shanley, who denied the charges against him, said the real problem in the church was not pedophilia but homosexuality and threatened to go to the media with allegations of homosexuality in the archdiocesan seminary. Shanley allegedly said that if he went to the press the cardinal would have to fire many of his top priests. It may be that Medeiros and other bishops so feared the exposure of widespread homophilia among the clergy that this inhibited them from dealing with the more serious problem: priests who had sexual relationships with children and adolescents. Indeed, bishops may have felt that pedophilia and ephebophilia constituted a minor public relations issue by comparison."

Web Link

Gene--please note the beginning sentences of the article you linked to:


"The widespread exposure of pedophilia within the Catholic clergy has led the church to focus on homosexuality within the clergy as a source of the problem. It has to be emphasized, however, that pedophilia and homosexuality are not the same thing. "

The measures put in place by the RC Church have been spectacularly effective in protecting children, the problem----" seems to have virtually disappeared (six credible cases of clerical sexual abuse in 2009 were reported in the RC U.S. bishops? annual audit, in a Church of some 65,000,000 members).

These measure have been strongly enforced since 2002.
The RC Church stopped sending pederast priests to psychotherapy and relying on their recommendations--- instead the Church imposes Canon Law on an accelerated track to get the guilty out of the priesthood and notifies the police.

In addition the RC addressed head on the "Gay pride" cultures which was prevalent in some seminaries and orders and ended them.

They also declared definitively that homosexuals would no longer be candidates for ordination if they demonstrated any homosexual behavior--- part of the reason that Anderson Cooper and Andrew Sullivan trying so hard to defame the RC Church.

The new RC policies have worked-- no one can argue with the numbers--

six credible cases of clerical sexual abuse in 2009 were reported in in a Church of some 65,000,000 members.


The past is the past, authentic reconciliation is ongoing.

Some Lawyers are trying to get as much money for themselves as they can as fast as they can.

Anti Catholics are having a field day among them some gay activists.

These same groups are also going after Mormons with the same agenda.

"The sexual and physical abuse of children and young people is a global plague; its manifestations run the gamut from fondling by teachers to rape by uncles to kidnapping-and-sex-trafficking.

In the United States alone, there are reportedly some 39 million victims of childhood sexual abuse.

Forty to sixty percent were abused by family members, including stepfathers and live-in boyfriends of a child?s mother?thus suggesting that abused children are the principal victims of the sexual revolution, the breakdown of marriage, and the hook-up culture.

Hofstra University professor Charol Shakeshaft reports that 6-10 percent of public school students have been molested in recent years?some 290,000 between 1991 and 2000"

The pederasts are out of the US RC Church, that was a good and important move.

As a society we should move to change the culture of sexualizing and sexually exploiting children across the board.

Obsessing about 36yr old cases from the RC Church distracts from the important mission of dealing with the enormous current societal problem in front of us right now in the US in 2010.

Not a catholic,

Here is the full first paragraph:

"The widespread exposure of pedophilia within the Catholic clergy has led the church to focus on homosexuality within the clergy as a source of the problem. It has to be emphasized, however, that pedophilia and homosexuality are not the same thing. In fact, only a handful of priests technically are pedophiles (sexually involved with children under ten or eleven). More might be inclined to ephebophilia, an attraction to pubescent and post-pubescent youth. One reason for this higher percentage is the Catholic practice of encouraging very young boys to enter seminaries and cutting them off from normal adolescent development"

The main issue is homosexuality within the priesthood.

"As usual, Walter, you paint everyone with the same broad brush."
More like with the same sharp needle.
Sex between inmates of our prisons is illegal and yet, How uncommon is it to see references to cellmate Bubba in discussing imprisonment? When will you demand imprisonment of all wardens and their superiors? When will you condemn those who tacitly approve of sexual assault of prisoners? And we have one political party that can thank those illegally in this country and illegally voting for their incumbency.
If you see excusing behavior in my correspondence you are looking through dingy glasses.

Walter -- you are correct, sexual abuse in prisons and juvenile detention centers is rampant and leads to a serious HIV epidemic among inmates, which cost millions of dollars to alleviate-- there is no cure

Primary prevention is the only approach that will save us money and save lives

How do we do that?

I mean --How do we solve that?

BTW why are Anderson Cooper and Andrew Sullivan obsessed with a 36 year old case when this year 50% of Gay/Bi sexual Black men are infected with HIV/AIDS?

In many countries in Africa and in EPA the main helpers for AIds patients are the Catholics and other Christian Churches

If the gay activists bring them down who benefits---not those dying of AIDS in Africa or EPA or PA

How do we resolve it? We take away prosecutorial discretion and anytime a law enforcement officer has knowledge of a crime and fails to prosecute she/he is guilty of misprision of a felony. This will clog the system, requiring a significant reduction in the laws we are burdened with. Remember that in "1984" Big Brother wanted you to break the law because that triggered government controls over you.
Gay activists ain't too swift, as demonstrated by ACT-UP whose actions condemned millions of their fellow gays by granting civil rights to a disease.

Gene--you still have it wrong--the main problem is sexual abuse, molestation and rape of boys by priests--not important who did it--the point is that it was done and then covered up.. Those are the problems--it is endemic and widespread and the chickens have now come home to roost for the vatican. Gone are the days when cardinals involved in these scandals (like law of boston) are "punished" for their actions by being given a promotion and a cushy job at the vatican. At least two popes are involved--one already has a history of being a soldier of hitler--this will permanently stain his record and may lead to his resignation. The days of the church being a moral force are over. Spin it any way you want, Gene. It is about sexual abuse of children and the ensuing coverup
Sharon continues to throw out red herrings right and left---homosexuals, gay rights activists, "anti-catholics", lawyers, Andrew Sullivan, Cooper, the Mormons. I think we all know where she is going-- William DOnohue has found a true acolyte.
She also states:
"The past is the past, authentic reconciliation is ongoing."
Tell that to the former children who were abused and still waiting for justice. Reconciliation has been just for publicity to make the pope look like he cares. He does not.

and

"Obsessing about 36yr old cases from the RC Church distracts from the important mission of dealing with the enormous current societal problem in front of us right now in the US in 2010."

Perhaps if these cases had been dealt with at the time we would not have this problem now. Dismissing those that were abused as "obsessing over a 36 year case" is callous and heartless--in line with the church's treatment of those abused by the degenerates within.
The catholic church will have no role in dealing with the problems facing us today. They are morally and spiritually bankrupt and many catholics and non-catholics look at the church leaders with contempt now.

Meanwhile Walter, in his feeble attempts to make excuses for degenerate clergy and their higher ups, compares the molestations, abuse and rape of young children to sex between inmates in prison!!!!He clamors for wardens to be arrested and tried and holds them to the same standards as he does catholic clergy. He then launches into a diatribe against the democrats!!! Is he for real??? He is not to be taken seriously and should confine his postings to telling us about his glory days in North Korea.

There is no glory in a frozen, beaten, retreating Army. The glory, if such, was when the 23rd Infantry, of which I was a member, and the
French Battalion, to which I was liaison, broke the back of the Chinese advance. Chipyong-Ni, Feb '51.
Bucky, you just don't get it. 50 years ago the attitude of the general public toward consensual relations between men and later teen boys was about like your attitude toward coerced rape of prisoners today.
One difference between us you have demonstrated; I have 78 years of experience - you have one year's experience X times.

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

"the main problem is sexual abuse, molestation and rape of boys by priests"

I completely agree.

It is important to realize WHY this is happening. It is NOT pedophilia, except in a very few cases. It is homosexual attraction between priests and the adolescent boys that surround them, whether consensual or not by the boys.

Until the underlying cause is recognized, it will not get fixed, despite applying statutory rape laws.

Spin it any way you want--pedohillia, ephebophilia, adolescent boys, post-pubescent boys, pre-pubescent boys. Homosexuality is not the issue as your own link states. This is an issue of degenerate priests abusing, molesting and raping boys. Consent has nothing to do with it since these children are under age.
The reason why this is happening is that these degenerate priests know that they will get away with it. They know that the degenerate bishops, cardinals and popes will cover for them and make sure that they are never prosecuted. That is hwy it continues to happen--one only has to look at the school for the deaf in Wisconsin and cardinal law's handling of the priest in the Boston area to know that it is true.
The whole house of cards is coming down now on the vatican. The people have had enough and it is time for a reckoning for all of these deviants--those that committed these vile acts and those that covered up for them.

"It is NOT pedophilia, except in a very few cases."
I do find this statement amusing, Gene, as if it not being pedophilia somehow makes less horrific a crime.
But you can peruse this link that disputes your "very few cases" contention. There are other links, I provided some where even the catholic clergy themselves refer to it as pedophilia scandal.
But keep on spinning

"as if it not being pedophilia somehow makes less horrific a crime."

Pedophilia is a recognized psychological disorder. Ephedophila is generally not recognized as a disorder. It is a natural attraction of adults for younger physically mature individuals. It is only a crime, if it happens before the age of consent, in that case it is statutory rape. Indeed, I do not find it as horrific as pedophelia. There are a number of college professors (both gay and straight)who partake in the practice, without much fanfare.

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

There is no point in continuing this conversation with you. You obviously see nothing wrong in the behavior of these degenerate clergy. You clearly feel that if "others do it" it is okay for priests to do it (it is wrong period regardless of whether the perp is a priest or a professor or a bus driver--though clergy should be held to higher standards). You clearly dismiss all the documented cases involving boys of all ages (pre- and post-pubescent) as not being horrific ( you can call it whatever you want--it is still wrong and horrific).
You should forward all of your postings to Bill Donohue at the Catholic League--he will certainly be proud of your spirited defense of these poor, misunderstood priests.

Studies indicate that rates of sexual abuse are higher among other confessions, than Catholicism! higher among other professionals ( therapists, teachers, police officers etc) than priests

The cases involving RC priests are decades old-- from the 60s,70s and 80s--- The RCs have solved the problem---

six credible cases of clerical sexual abuse in 2009 were reported in the RC U.S. bishops? annual audit, in a Church of some 65,000,000 members



So let's admit something simple - the only reasons it makes news with the Catholics, is because they are the last Religion that one can pick on.

Imagine writing these kind of post about Islam, Judaism, or Methodism?


Catholicism is only remaining approved target for prejudice and hate speech.

Such Anti-Catholic rants are beneath contempt

Sharon has it wrong again:
"Studies indicate that rates of sexual abuse are higher among other confessions, than Catholicism! higher among other professionals ( therapists, teachers, police officers etc) than priests"
Which studies? No links provided, as usual. Even so, sex abuse by anyone is wrong, however clergy are held to a higher standard

"The cases involving RC priests are decades old-- from the 60s,70s and 80s--- The RCs have solved the problem---"
They never addressed the problem so how was it solved.
Read this link for recent cases: Web Link
Even so, should cases that occurred yers ago be swept under the rug even though the innocent victims want closure and justice?

"six credible cases of clerical sexual abuse in 2009 were reported in the RC U.S. bishops? annual audit, in a Church of some 65,000,000 members"
And you trust an audit by the same bishops who are involved in the coverups?

"So let's admit something simple - the only reasons it makes news with the Catholics, is because they are the last Religion that one can pick on."
No, it is because they are the religion that has a history of trying to hide the disgusting facts--this goes right to the top--the last two popes themselves are implicated.

"Imagine writing these kind of post about Islam, Judaism, or Methodism?"
If those other religions had an organized system in which child molesters, rapists and abusers were shielded and hidden from justice then they would be fair game.

"Catholicism is only remaining approved target for prejudice and hate speech."
typical of the guilty and their supporters to try to make themselves the victim.

"Such Anti-Catholic rants are beneath contempt"
These comments are not anti-Catholic because they do not deal with the religion itself, but rather the criminal activity of degenrate priests and those higher ups that shielded them from the law.
What is beneath contempt is to ignore the suffering of these children in order to perpetuate a corrupt, immoral organization.

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

"If those other religions had an organized system in which child molesters, rapists and abusers were shielded and hidden from justice then they would be fair game"
You are kidding, Not.
There is a continent where that is the norm.

"You obviously see nothing wrong in the behavior of these degenerate clergy".

I never said that, nor do I believe it. I distinguish between pedophilia and ephedophila, but I don't approve of either, even though I find the latter less offensive than the former. I also think that statutory rape laws should be prosecuted, not covered up.

My consistent point is that ephedophila will continue to be a problem in the Church as long as it continues to allow homosexuals to be priests. It ain't rocket science. The Church should enforce its celibacy rules, or openly admit what is really going on in its seminaries and its priesthood. Sexual attraction is a very powerful force, and we should all accept this fact. Many homosexual priests are attracted to adolescent boys. Probably most of them can struggle with it, and avoid the temptation, but many others cannot.

The Catholic laity has had its eyes opened by the recent scandals. What parent would want to send their son into the priesthood, given the current situation? Assurances that "degenerate" priests will be weeded out is not very comforting, because it comes after the fact. The Church needs to weed out homosexual priests, period. The Church will probably not survive, unless it does so. This is ironic, because it thought that it could not survive without them.

One thing that the Church could do to make a big difference is to allow their priests to marry. Forbidding the priests to marry can make many priests get their pleasures from wherever they can. If they were in a monogomous, healthy, sexual relationship, they may never turn deviant.

I doubt if this will ever happen, but denying sex to an adult male must cause problems.

The RCs do have married priests and are about to get a lot more--

Anglican/ CE priests who did and will continue to join the RC Church and practice as now RC priests bring their wives and families with them. They are welcomed.

The problem historically for the RC Church is the number of homosexual priests who molested adolescent boys, 90% of the molest cases involved adolescent boys.
The RCs are busy moving out gay priests and are not recruiting any more of them.

It seems that the RC Church may have a shortage of priests as it now excludes homosexuals--- allowing married priests may boost recruitment-- but they will have to raise the pay grades.

The Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church has both married and celebrate heterosexual priests -- I believe they are considered to be in the fold.

As The US Episcopal Church welcomes active homosexual priests and bishops those homosexual RC priests and bishops who will have to soon leave the RC Church will have a home.
No problem with that, all is well

Foot note

While the solution is clearly removing homosexual priests, screening new recruits while welcoming Anglicans, ECUSA married priests and allowing RC candidates who are married.
While the ECUSA gives a welcoming home to gay clerics.
We should not ignore the bureaucratic incompetence of some RC bishops--- the German Shepard is clean-- but the RCs need to update their IT, business processes and decision making processes.

This seems to have been already done in all USA parishes, they should apply best practices globally-- after all -- as both Reagan and Obama said our best defense against the horror is a robust Christian ethic and practice as we seek common interest with other ideologies.

The RCs should adopt the S African policy of reconciliation for past wrong-- the lawyers just want money--others want-- whatever?

"The RCs do have married priests and are about to get a lot more--"
This is an irrelevant issue.

"The problem historically for the RC Church is the number of homosexual priests who molested adolescent boys, 90% of the molest cases involved adolescent boys. "
First of all Sharon makes it sound like if the boys are "adolescent" it is somehow okay or less of a horrific incident. Second her 90% number is a factoid (she says it enough times and it becomes true). The number does not real matter, nor does the issue of whether the boys were adolescent or not. Third, homosexuality is not the issue either. These priests are not homosexuals, they are degenerates. Trying to blame homosexuals is trying to divert the spotlight from the real perverts and their accomplices, including the present pope. The problem historically is that the church would let these degenerate priests get away with it--they would not report them top the police.

"We should not ignore the bureaucratic incompetence of some RC bishops--- the German Shepard is clean--"
It isnot incompetence, but breaking of the law. The "german Shepard" is involved. He held a position as cardinal which oversaw responses to the actions of these degenerate clergy. He saw the memos. He instructed that the police were not to be contacted. He aided in the coverup, He is guilty.

"The RCs should adopt the S African policy of reconciliation for past wrong-- the lawyers just want money--others want-- whatever? "
Once again Sharon tries to turn the spotlight away from the guilty and present them poor, innocent victims. Now she blames the lawyers, the victims and "others" that dare to speak out against the church's horrible crimes against young, innocent children. There is no comparison between the situation in S. AFrica and the RC issue with regard to reconciliation.

Bottom line of Sharon's postings is a pattern of make the perps the victims, blame homosexuals, lawyers and "others". Make it sound like only "adolescent" boys were molested (that is okay in Sharon's mind apparently). Write as if the church has addressed the problem,bring in a red herring of Anglicans and married priests. Divert attention from the degenerate priests, bishops, cardinals and popes.

The story is dead today----

MSNBC has retracted and apologized today for grossly slandering the Pope

The NYT story has been revealed as a sham, a set up and as 5th rate journalism.

The people who engineered the slanders are

1/a lawyer who wants to extort and has done so as much money as he can
2/ ex bishop weakland--who stole $ 500,000 from the Church to pay his gay lover, has just written his autobiography in which he states that he was homosexual all the time----no credibility and an axe to grind.
3/ ex bishop weakland ,as it turns out today, had jurisdiction over the NYT reported 36 yr old case for 20 yrs and did nothing about it for 20 yrs. Others in the Church had, in fact, reported the matter to the police decades ago-- they investigated the case and dropped it.
It turns out weakland covered up the truth and lied for decades, just as he stole money from the Church and covered up his own violations.


End of the day,----
1/weakland wants to sell his book and get revenge on the Pope and the Church.
2/The lawyer wants to make money.
3/The soon to ex NYT reporter wanted fame and to provide a soap box for Anti Catholic hate speech

Not all homosexuals are pederast but all men who are sexually attracted to adolescent males are homosexual.

The RC Church and the Anglican Church are now being forthright about the problems they have with closeted gay priests and bishops.

The ECUSA welcomes active gay priests and bishops, fine and good, that is where the gay RCs and Anglicans will go.

Married and heterosexual Anglican and ECUSA clergy are joining the RC Church in droves-- all is well.

These issues should have been aired long ago.

As it is today, according to the SJMN, the problem of sex abuse in USA Swimming is much greater than that in the US RC churchWeb Link

End of story

footnote

The slanderers and profiteers clearly chose the eve of Holy Week and Passover to launch this scam, believing that devout Catholics and Jews would be internally focussed

Wrong move-- Jewish and Catholic reporters and lawyers are on this scam and have refuted the vile slanders against the Pope and the Catholic Church.
After the religious celebrations there will be hell to pay--

The Traditional Catholics and Traditional Jews are used to this sort of blood libel----- see what happens next week--

Sharon--the apology that NBC provided had nothing to do with the big picture story--it was an apology for a specific article:
Web Link
"NBC says the attributed quote was erroneous and they have corrected the error. An apology was also extended. The apology is accepted."

"The NYT story has been revealed as a sham, a set up and as 5th rate journalism."
which NY Times story are you referring to? Are you saying the scandals in Germany are a sham? Those in Ireland? The molestation for 30+ years of deaf children in Wisconsin.
The stories are true. Shooting the messenger doe snot make the truth go away.

Once again Sharon tries to make the church out as innocent victims--as if their degenerate clergy did not molest innocent children. She turns to the usual list of scapegoats--the lawyers, former bishops, homosexuals (this is typical--when in doubt blame homosexuals--even though it is well known to all reasonable people that homosexuals are not pedohiles). You will note she provides no basis, in the way of links to reputable sites, to back up her claims.

"As it is today, according to the SJMN, the problem of sex abuse in USA Swimming is much greater than that in the US RC churchWeb Link"
Sharon should read her own link. It says:
"former swim coach Andrew King, who recently was sentenced to 40 years in prison for molesting young swimmers for more than 30 years. "
Note that this perp was arrested, tried and sentenced to a long prison term. When did that ever happen with a priest?? It didn't because our pope instructed the clergy to NOT report these matters to the police.

"The slanderers and profiteers clearly chose the eve of Holy Week and Passover to launch this scam, believing that devout Catholics and Jews would be internally focussed"
Note again--the use of scapegoats ("slanderers and profiteers") to try to turn the spotlight away from the real perps--the degenerate clergy at all levels of the church. This story has been news for weeks. There is no scam and this nothing to do with holy week.

"Wrong move-- Jewish and Catholic reporters and lawyers are on this scam and have refuted the vile slanders against the Pope and the Catholic Church."
Really, care to provide us with some real facts to back up this claim.
This is another factoid that Sharon throws out. No basis in fact for thus comment.

"After the religious celebrations there will be hell to pay--"
For the catholic church, maybe. The fallout has already begun. The Irish churchgoers were very unhappy at Palm Sunday services. John Pual II's reputation is in tatters already. There is talk of Benedict having to resign. He has been called as a witness in a trial in Kentucky. He will try to evade his duty as a citizen--the Vatican lawyers are working overtime to prevent justice from happening and to prolong the suffering of the victims. The church has lost touch with the people they are supposed to serve--it is all about money and power for them. But the days of the church being seen as a moral authority are over. They have burnt their bridges. There will be hell to pay and it will be the church that pays it.

"Traditional Jews are used to this sort of blood libel----- see what happens next week-- "
Why bring in the Jews to this discussion--this is all the church's problem. Unless Sharon is planning to make the jews a scapegoat for this also.

Footnote

Web Link

""Thank you for breaking your silence," Schoenborn told the victims. "A lot has been broken open. There is less looking away. But there is still a lot to do.""

The victims that the cardinal is thanking are the people that Sharon is labeling as "slanderers and profiteers"

Web Link
"Further revelations of the Vatican's inaction to address pedophilia may tarnish not only Pope Benedict's reputation, but that of Pope Paul VI.
According to a newly released letter, Pope Paul VI and the Vatican knew about clergy abuse of children almost 50 years ago."

Also looks like another former pope was aware of the scandal and did nothing:

Another footnote;

We now know that the NY Times story is right on:

Web Link
"Levada succeeded the pope in leading the congregation, which oversees Catholic doctrine and issues of faith and morals."

Come on, people, does anyone take the complaints of Benedicts replacement as overseer of faith and morals seriously? The Vatican is in defense mode.