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Was Pat Tillman murdered? New information

Original post made by The Cohen Brother, Old Palo Alto, on Jul 27, 2007

Stunning as it is to contemplate, the Associated Press obtained Pentagon documents through the Freedom of Information Act showing that investigators looked into whether the athlete-turned-soldier might have been deliberately killed in 2004 by members of his Special Forces unit in Afghanistan. Nothing the AP obtained is definitive, and ultimately the friendly-fire ruling withstood a criminal investigation.

But, according to the AP, medical examiners questioned the close proximity of three bullet holes in Tillman's forehead, fired from ten yards away. There are questions -- which will be difficult to hear, considering Tillman's heroism -- that Tillman was not well-liked within his unit. Other elements of the circumstances surrounding Tillman's death appear difficult to reconcile with the friendly-fire ruling -- which came after the Army announced that Tillman died in combat:

In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

_ Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.

_ The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene _ no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

Almost every aspect of Tillman's death has been surrounded by official obfuscation. The head of the Army's Training and Doctrine Command, General William Wallace, is in charge of issuing reprisals to Tillman's commanders. His recommendations, according to Julian Barnes of the Los Angeles Times, are for administrative punishments and not criminal ones. The general who told investigators 70 times of his faulty memory, now-retired Lieutenant General Philip R. Kensinger Jr., will be stripped of one of his stars and lose approximately $900 a month from his retirement package.

On Wednesday, House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Henry Waxman (D-CA) will hold a hearing about what and when the Pentagon leadership knew about Tillman's death. Kensinger has been invited to testify, as has former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former Central Command chief General John Abizaid, and former Joint Chiefs Chairman General Richard Myers. They're not likely to appear, but the AP's revelations will surely figure prominently in the committee's exploration of what exactly happened to a national hero.

Comments (69)

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Posted by Martin Klein
a resident of Los Altos
on Jul 27, 2007 at 1:35 pm

This is simply the most venal, criminal, mendacious, incompetent, anti-constitutional, larcenous, immoral administration in our history. I have serious doubts if the Republic will survive these bastards. My outrage has long since worn down. Oh. So they covered up the murder of a "hero". I'm shocked. Shocked.

How many people have these criminals killed? Not only in their illegal war, but by simple incompetence and greed. We will never know how many innocents died in the days after Katrina.

Way to go, Supremes. You appointed a brown shirt mafia to helm our nation.

Pray for an election, folks. Any election. These criminals are totally capable of faking a terrorist attack and imposing martial law.


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Posted by andrea
a resident of Community Center
on Jul 27, 2007 at 1:36 pm

Tillman was very vocal about the foolishness of fighting in Iraq, when the real enemy was bin Laden in Afghanistan. He told people he was going to make this public when he got back to the USA on leave.


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Posted by Paul
a resident of Duveneck/St. Francis
on Jul 27, 2007 at 1:43 pm

As I read the alternating coverage today on the murder of Pat Tillman and the deliberate confusion Gonzales has created over TSP/"Project X," it occured to me that maybe we're not talking about two different subjects here.

What if Project X (or the unspoken aspect of TSP) is the actual murder of administration poster boys-turned-hugely-embarassing-critics like Pat Tillman?

What if the murder of Tillman and others is the extreme atrocity even Double-High RWA John Ashcroft couldn't stomach?

Isn't that far more likely than Ashcroft, Comey, Mueller and the entire top staff of DOJ threatening to quit over some technical glitches that were easily smoothed over in the course of two or three weeks?

I just can't get out of my head the image of a totalitarian freak like John Ashcroft encountering something so horrible it would literally raise him off his deathbed to defy the president Ashcroft fervently believed was anointed by God Almighty himself.

Tweaks just don't cut it. Premeditated, cold-blooded murder does.


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Posted by veteran
a resident of Barron Park
on Jul 27, 2007 at 1:48 pm

I think Tillman, an outspoken critic of the war, stumbled into something that others were afraid he would talk about. The triple tap to the forehead and the burned body armor have a really bad stink to them, and the "fog of war" would have to be awfully thick to obscure his friendly status over a distance of only ten yards.
Additionally, if the administration refuses to release all the pertinent information about Tillman's death, it's only fair to blame them for it.


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Posted by Walter_E_Wallis
a resident of Midtown
on Jul 27, 2007 at 1:56 pm

Another possibility is that the forces were divided and lost awareness of the situation. I suppose it is also possible that Cheney, in the Roswell UFO, personally flew in and executed Tillman for re-registering democrat. I see nothing in the situation or in the reported discrepancies in statements that would paint this as anything other than that wonderful Army invention, the SNAFU. Of course, we haven't heard from Rosie O'Donald yet.


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Posted by Deko
a resident of College Terrace
on Jul 27, 2007 at 2:01 pm

Tillman was murdered because he turned against the Regime. I've benn saying for years that the biggest mistake sane America has made in its perception of the Regime is to treat it and Al Qaeda as separate entities.


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Posted by Daniel
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jul 27, 2007 at 2:04 pm

That is called murder, nothing else is remotely plausible. And they knew it all along. That's why the White House is claiming executive privilege on
those documents. And like everything else, they'll just run out the clock.


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Posted by Frank
a resident of Southgate
on Jul 27, 2007 at 2:07 pm


I'm puzzled why this investigation has taken so long. Even last September 2006 an article in Sports Illustrated discussed the three bullet holes in Tillman's forehead:

Web Link

But what was she supposed to do when, Mary says, an Army coroner told her that he did not sign an initial casualty report that stated her son had been killed by enemy fire, because he knew the enemy at that distance wasn't skilled enough to send three bullets that close together through a man's forehead? How was she supposed to let go when so many lapses in judgment and standard procedure seemed to have occurred? How was she supposed to respond when she learned that the testimony of soldiers was changing, that culpability was vanishing, that Pat's uniform and body armor had been burned within three days of his death, that the initial investigator's report was buried and redone after he recommended that "certain leaders be investigated" for "gross negligence" in deciding to split the platoon and have it travel in daylight, and that two gunners be punished for gross negligence and loss of control. What was she supposed to think when she read one officer's conclusion that the Tillmans, "not being [Christian], I'm not really sure what they believe or how they can get their head around death. So, in my personal opinion, sir, that is why I don't think they'll ever be satisfied."


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Posted by Gordon Banks
a resident of Los Altos Hills
on Jul 27, 2007 at 2:09 pm

I'm not surprised at all, unfortunately. I have believed after the first lie coming from the military via-avis the circumstances of his "accidental" death that Tillman was murdered. The military has and will lie about anything. Perpetual war is the goal here.


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Posted by Jay
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jul 27, 2007 at 2:15 pm

The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that HE HAD A BAD MEMORY and couldn't recall details of his actions.

Spoken like a true Republican


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Posted by Carl
a resident of Barron Park
on Jul 27, 2007 at 2:23 pm

The three holes are significant because the M16 has a three shot setting, so one American could have executed him at close range. With the information we now have, only an exceptionally irrational person or rabid partisan would still claim that Tillman's death could have been anything but deliberate mirder.


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Posted by Frank
a resident of Southgate
on Jul 27, 2007 at 2:49 pm


More detail about Tillman's death from another article:

Web Link

The documents also shed new light on Tillman's last moments.

It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again.

But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."


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Posted by Resident
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jul 27, 2007 at 3:47 pm

I have been very suspicious of this for some time and I wonder if all this is coming out just because he was famous. If he had been a nobody, this would never have come out.

However, I think that this cover up is nothing deeply political, just military covering up for itself. Too many personal arguments can be solved with a gun. If someone doesn't like someone else for any reason, from disagreement over an off duty soccer game (for want of a better sport) to a dispute over someone's property, a gun is too easy to solve a dispute. I know that killing someone is never the intention, but a bad day, a bad comment, a bad situation, who knows what goes through the mind of a bad tempered private.

I agree that something like this is rare, but it has never happened????


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Posted by Mart
a resident of Barron Park
on Jul 27, 2007 at 5:37 pm

Sounds like the "stop sniveling" comment was part of the original story and was left in as the story morphed. Like J Green said, it contradicts the rest of it. As for not being well-liked in the unit, that may be - but how often does that lead to fragging among troops who are supposed to be among the most highly trained in the world? If that is what happened did the shooter(s) not understand how much spotlight would be turned on them, killing the poster boy? I'm deeply suspicious of this incident, especially considering Generals were willing to risk their careers to cover it up. If Pat Tillman came back and started talking, he would have a big microphone and the ear of all those potential recruits.


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Posted by sarlat
a resident of Crescent Park
on Jul 27, 2007 at 5:45 pm

It is clear that Pat Tillman was murdered. However, knowing how vile and criminal the Bush cabal is, I would be shocked if this was "only" a case of fragging a soldier who got on a fellow soldier's nerves. I think those criminal terrorists were deadly afraid that their poster boy would go stateside and start dissing the Iraq invasion. It wouldn't have been that difficult to find a general loyal to the "Cause" who would find a soldier willing to do the killing, knowing he would be protected from prosecution, which is exactly what happened.


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Posted by Deko
a resident of College Terrace
on Jul 27, 2007 at 6:09 pm

Bush is again trying to invoke the "executive privilege" cop-out clause in the Pat Tillman scandal. He and his lapdogs, especially serial liar and perjurer Alberto Gonzales obviously believe than stonewalling is the only thing that will save them from total collapse and impeachment. This time I have the feeling it might not work, and coincidently, "executive privilege" is unconstitutional and nothing more than a ruse by the executive branch to perpetuate criminal activity and escape the consequences.


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Posted by Gerald
a resident of Downtown North
on Jul 27, 2007 at 6:12 pm

I really thought that I was beyond being shocked by political events - not so much that he may have been murdered, which is pretty obvious by now, but the total and obvious cover-up and the fact that this is still not the leading story in today's news.

I cannot see one general covering something this big on his own initiative. What kept everyone in the unit silent? Who silenced the doctors? Who silenced those who investigated?


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Posted by Walter_E_Wallis
a resident of Midtown
on Jul 27, 2007 at 7:35 pm

I don't know the distance between the teams, but a 3 shot burst might not have too much spread at close in distances. I find it hard to believe that a unit under fire would take the time to set up an execution and even less likely that someone with Tillman's training would let someone get the frontal drop on him. What I believe happened after a regretable friendly fire accident was a well intentioned but wrong attempt to spare feelings and avoid blame. I consider it reprehensible that liberals make use of this incident to slander better men then they. When you drag everything through the BDS funnel, the outcome is unrecognizable.


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Posted by Matt
a resident of Midtown
on Jul 27, 2007 at 7:39 pm

Tillman wasn't just any soldier, he was THE poster boy for recruiting - the All-American who gives up a comfortable life for his country. Also remember when it happened this administration had almost unchecked power - their fantasies of a multi-front war were becoming reality, but successfully occupying newly vanquished foes was going to require a huge inflow of new recruits. If your poster boy starts quoting Chomsky and talking about how illegal it all is, well, all those bright-eyed kids back in Oklahoma just might listen.


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Posted by Frankie
a resident of Menlo Park
on Jul 27, 2007 at 7:44 pm

A triple-tap to the forehead sounds like a coup de grace to me. Weren't Tillman's uniform and flak vest destroyed after his death? I've never understood why that was done, but this new information suggests a possible answer: if the uniform and vest showed evidence of multiple, non-penetrating hits to the body, including rounds embedded in the armor, such damage would strongly suggest that Tillman was first knocked to the ground by "friendly" fire. Strong though he was, he'd have been hard-pressed to get up again. Knocked down, and probably not more than thirty feet from the shooter(s), it would quickly have become clear that he was no longer a threat, if not obviously a friendly. But, once the shooter(s) realized that they'd fired upon one of their own - and a high-profile, nationally famous comrade at that - panic at their error, compounded by the adrenaline rush and confusion of the preceding firefight, coupled with personal enmity, might have led to an impulsive act of murder: a three round burst from close range. If that's at all close to what really happened, then the destruction of the uniform and body armor was meant to hide evidence that Tillman was already down, injured and not a threat when he received the three bullets to the forehead. It may not have been a pre-meditated act of fratricide, but it may well have been an opportunistic murder.

Someone in his unit needs to start telling the honorable truth, now.


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Posted by Fred
a resident of Barron Park
on Jul 27, 2007 at 7:48 pm

Walter, I differ with you on a couple points. Better men - not sure who you refer to, but it does seem like some of the higher ups may have trouble defending their better-ness (just as in other pretty bad regimes). And I might substitute "self-serving" for "well-intentioned" and like your summary better - I truly doubt that the perpetrators of the cover-up, from inception to today, have been focused much on sparing the Tilman family's feelings. I am no authority on the details here, but it's a pretty stinky situation and I would say that no one has covered themselves with glory.


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Posted by Deko
a resident of College Terrace
on Jul 27, 2007 at 7:48 pm

The contempt the apologists for Bush's terrorist regime have for Pat Tillman, and those of us who believe the truth about his death should be exposed, is breathtaking. Their attempted excuses says a lot about their lack of love for their country. Remember, a citizens loyalty is to the Constitution, not the Commander in Chief, who for the last 6.5 years also happend to have been a criminal and a terrorist.


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Posted by Gerald
a resident of Downtown North
on Jul 27, 2007 at 8:01 pm

Bush firmly inserted himself in this mess by claiming exec. priv. This means that if the truth about this obvious murder comes out, his administration if finished, his top goons go to jail and he is impeached, because this would be so dramatic:covering up the murder of a celebrity poster boy for US militarism who turned out to be an anti-war free thinking atheist. Until now I believed that this regime was a crime syndicate that would be able to hold tight and run out the clock, but now I think that they'll end up like John Gotti.


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Posted by Gregory
a resident of Atherton
on Jul 27, 2007 at 8:16 pm

I am apolitical and non-partisan. I don't look at this matter from any political perspective. Having said that, the probability that this is a case of friendly fire, based on the latest revelations, are astronomically slim to none. What remains to be determined is whether this was a local case of fragging or if this murder was ordered from above. The first thing that must be done is a total end to the executive privilege nonsense. Following that we must have a special prosecutor with absolute subpoena power. This is a bloody disaster and we must get to the bottom of it.


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Posted by Walter_E_Wallis
a resident of Midtown
on Jul 28, 2007 at 7:12 am

The better men I refer to are Tillman's buddies whom you KOsites have converted from trained and dedicated warriors to amoral toadies. I still want to know how the death of Tillman would have been any less of a loss to the family had the initial story been specifically correct. I am disgusted that Tillman's bloody shirt has become a banner of yet another cohort of the enemy.


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Posted by Perspective
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jul 28, 2007 at 8:12 am

Did you all know that we have about 17,000 murders per year in the US? No more than 2/3rds of them are ever solved. I am sure the ones that aren't solved are cover ups by Bush.

If this WAS a murder, then out of a million military people, it wouldn't surprise me. The murder rate in the military is much lower than in the general population, but they are still humans. Especially if one or more of them believe that the person murdered was putting the whole unit in danger. No clue if this is the case, but if this WAS a murder by his unit, that would be the reason. However, I doubt it. It would be a stupid thing to do, and most guys in a unit are not fools.

Not defending murder at all, before you BDS sufferers gets started on my being a "Bush apologist". Just keeping perspective here.


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Posted by copperhead
a resident of Greenmeadow
on Jul 28, 2007 at 9:28 am

As a Vietnam Veteran I can tell you that it was murder. I heard on the news today that some high ranking official said that an automatic burst can place rounds that close together.
Anyone who was in the military knows that a weapon fired on automatic means hold trigger and bullets fire until trigger released. They also know that 650 rounds per minute is the rate of fire. That means that in one second, ten rounds are discharged.
On automatic, the kick of each round moves the rifle
to the right if you are right handed. And to the left if you are left handed. If you are Arnold Schwarzenegger in peak condition. You might be able to have a stitch pattern of 6 inches or more.
Then there is the odds factor. 1 bullet to the head conceivable. 2 bullets to head, we got some sharp snipers out there. 3 bullets to head- we got a whole bunch of snipers out there, and they can time there shots to within a second of each other.

Now the idea that there was a firefight of at least 7 guys firing automatic weapons. Putting out 70 rounds per second. And no equipment was hit?
As a Veteran who was in many firefights, not all of them involving the enemy, I know this Government is blowing smoke up everybody's you know what. And it happened in Vietnam. Remember My Lai?


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Posted by Sylvia
a resident of Los Altos
on Jul 28, 2007 at 9:34 am

When Pat Tillman was killed, Sports Illustrated ran a lengthy article about him, his career, and his service. I'm a 61-year-old grandmother with an ever-deepening antipathy to pro sports, but I found myself reading the article with a growing sense that this man was fragged and that it was done to shut him up. He was a smart, dedicated citizen who hoped to someday go into public service. He also was becoming increasingly vociferous about his opinion that the war, especially in Iraq, was a huge mistake and, in his words, highly illegal. Someone of his stature could be expected to sway a lot of people. At this state of affairs vis-a-vis this administration's handling of (name anything), can we any longer profess shock at the idea that a) Pat Tillman was murdered to shut him up and use his death as a recruiting/sales ploy and that b) a long line of characters participated in the cover-up?


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Posted by Gerald
a resident of Downtown North
on Jul 28, 2007 at 9:36 am

AND Bush has already "executive privilege" when asked for White House information about Pat Tillman. It doesn't matter if you are a Democratic, Republican or Independent. It doesn't matter if you support the invasion of Iraq or not. Despite our differences, as an American, the Constitution has stood for over two centuries as the defining document of our government, the final source to determine – in the end – if something is legal or right. Every federal official – including the President – who takes an oath of office swears to "uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States." WE MUST IMPEACH.


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Posted by sarlat
a resident of Crescent Park
on Jul 28, 2007 at 9:49 am

Pat Tillman, the poster boy for the Bush/Neocon imperial militarism was going to complete his tour, return to the US and speak against the Iraq war. He is killed under highly suspicious circumstances in what is labeled "friendly fire". It turns out that evidence is burnet, witnesses change their version, a general lies and the official version makes no sense and keeps changing. Now Bush invokes executive privileg, aka 'I'm hiding the truth that if revealed would destroy me so you are never going to get it'. Only the real fanatical true believers who refuse to think don't realize that Tillman was murdered by this terrorist administration. Time to impeach, remove, convict, jail and send to the gas chamber. If we don't, our Republic won't survive.


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Posted by Walter_E_Wallis
a resident of Midtown
on Jul 28, 2007 at 1:17 pm

If you were the type to assassinate enemies, you wouldn't have to go to a battlefield to find suitables.
As or the burning of "evidence", is it not standard practice now to dispose of bloodsoaked material to prevent the spread of blood borne diseases?
I never fired a saw, not in existence in my time, so I have no idea whether the standard 3 shot burst had any spread, but I do know I never cared for the lighter peanut load, being a 30-06 fan. I will check with my grandson who did carry a saw about its capability.


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Posted by Carney
a resident of Leland Manor/Garland Drive
on Jul 28, 2007 at 5:07 pm

Yes, I think you are all right. Bush did kill Pat Tillman. Of course a few years ago, we discovered that Clinton killed Vince Foster.

Now excuse me while I adjust my tin foil hat.


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Posted by LMAO
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jul 28, 2007 at 5:28 pm

I am a Republican and yet always thought that whole Vince murder thing was absurd. It is still going around that, since Clinton had the most number of "accidental" deaths of people who worked for him and of friends that the vast Clinton power executed people. Cracked me up then, just like your comment, Carney, cracks me up now.

If Bush were going to murder every anti-war Iraq war vet, we would have an amazing number of newly dead military!

Come on guys!


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Posted by Glenn
a resident of Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jul 28, 2007 at 6:46 pm

Pat Tillman wasn't an ordinary anti Iraq invasion vet. He was THE poster boy for the Bush/Cheney militarism. What the regime hadn't realized, was that the man was anything but a conservative. he was a bright, indpendent, well read atheist who was fiercely against the Iraq illegal war and was going to become a very local critic of that war once his tour was up. Add that to the massive cover-up, frequent lies and changing stories of those involved in his death, the new information that he was shot from close range and you'd have to be extremely naive or a Bush/Cheney true believer to oppose a special prosecutor. The Tillman family demands that Bush stop using the imaginary "executive privilege" to stall the truth from coming out. The truth regarding the real circumstances of his death don't belong to the felonious Bush/Cheney regime, they belong to the American people and we will not allow those criminals get away with hiding it.


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Posted by Fred
a resident of Barron Park
on Jul 28, 2007 at 7:06 pm

LMAO, I tend to agree, it seems pretty far-fetched. On the other hand, the whole notion of CREEP, the Plumbers, the Rosemary Woods tape, John Mitchell, and Nixon's coverup seems almost incomprehensible even almost 40 years later (esp since they were going to win in a landslide anyway).

The Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld outfit has been a pretty extreme bunch (more like the Nixon administration than, say, Bush I). So did Bush order a hit on Tillman? Seems unlikely, anymore than Nixon ordering Watergate. Could somebody in the administration have set something in motion that resulted in Tillman's death, followed by a wide-scale coverup? Again, I'd say the odds are against it, but, per the above example, at least as strange things have happened within our lifetimes.

Fred


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Posted by Walter_E_Wallis
a resident of Midtown
on Jul 28, 2007 at 7:18 pm

I anticipate your mention of another attempt of Bush/Cheney/Rove to silence, or even answer back to critics.
If there is one flaw in the Bush administration it has been their reluctance to respond to criticism, even to the detriment of troop morale.
I must admit to astonishment to the Troother contributors to this forum. I expect better from a university town.


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Posted by Fred
a resident of Barron Park
on Jul 28, 2007 at 7:24 pm

Walter, you seem to me to have a little of a blind spot on this one - "if there is one flaw in the Bush administration" - if?? I'm not sure how history will judge them, but I expect that they will have some serious flaws.

Fred


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Posted by Deko
a resident of College Terrace
on Jul 28, 2007 at 9:30 pm

The odds are not against someone in the Bush/Cheney crime syndicate setting in motion a hit on Pat Tillman. The odds are very great that any other scenario is very unlikely. One of the main basic faults of the US public is that it's extremely naive pliable. It is easily fooled and has an intrinsic belief that a person who was elected president is incapable of committing evil murderous acts. For all the talk of the American public mistrust of government, most actually have blind faith in the presidency. That blind faith has allowed Bush/Cheney/neocons to get away with shameless and horrific crimes and with the dismantling of our democracy. The fact that Bush has invoked executive privilege on so many occasions, including the Tillman death, should signal something to even the most ignorant, naive and pliable among us.


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Posted by Gerald
a resident of Downtown North
on Jul 28, 2007 at 9:45 pm

Tillman's mother, Mary Tillman, who has long suggested that her son was deliberately killed by his comrades, said she is still looking for answers and looks forward to the congressional hearings next week.

"Nothing is going to bring Pat back. It's about justice for Pat and justice for other soldiers. The nation has been deceived," she said.

The documents show that a doctor who autopsied Tillman's body was suspicious of the three gunshot wounds to the forehead. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would consider opening a criminal case.

"He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said no," the doctor testified.

Also according to the documents, investigators pressed officers and soldiers on a question Mrs. Tillman has been asking all along.

"Have you, at any time since this incident occurred back on April 22, 2004, have you ever received any information even rumor that Cpl. Tillman was killed by anybody within his own unit intentionally?" an investigator asked then-Capt. Richard Scott.

Scott, and others who were asked, said they were certain the shooting was accidental.

Investigators also asked soldiers and commanders whether Tillman was disliked, whether anyone was jealous of his celebrity, or if he was considered arrogant. They said Tillman was respected, admired and well-liked.

The documents also shed new light on Tillman's last moments.

It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again.

But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."


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Posted by Walter_E_Wallis
a resident of Midtown
on Jul 29, 2007 at 6:16 am

There must be an antithesis to Ocam's razor to describe the Daily KOs/Troother attitude that discards all but the most unlikely explanations until they hit on something that reinforces their monomaniac Bushatred.
Having been in a fire fight or so I am not surprised that the descriptions given over time vary in detail. At those times your mind is elsewhere, wonderfully concentrated on survival..
As I mentioned before, the administration has weathered criticisms before with less response than I would have prefered, so any suggestion that they would order a hit just to eliminate one potential opposition when they go out of their way to ingratiate with their political enemies is fatuous.


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Posted by Fred
a resident of Barron Park
on Jul 29, 2007 at 8:16 am

What about the idea that a soon-to-be Attorney General would supervise the break-in to the political opposition HQ (during the leadup to a landslide) and then the President would participate in a large-scale cover-up, including erasing subpeona'ed evidence? Fatuous? I'd agree if it hadn't happened. I wouldn't go too far out on a limb for these guys, Walter. Absolute power does corrupt, unfortunately.


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Posted by Abe
a resident of Professorville
on Jul 29, 2007 at 8:34 am

It's clear that the Clintons had Vince Foster killed. I don't care about the investigations that were done. Bill and Hillary are quite capable of obtaining the services of a professional assasin, one that would make it look like suicide. The Juanita Broaddrick scandal was about to break wide open, and Foster had all the dirt. He couldn't be left alive, in case he decided to spill the beans that Bill Clinton was a rpaist.

A similar type of assasin could have entered the army, volunteered for the Rangers, got himself assigned with Tillman (through Bush connections), then, when the opportunity presented itself, used the fog of war to make the hit.

People who reject conspiracies out of hand, will get clobbered by reality.


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Posted by Walter_E_Wallis
a resident of Midtown
on Jul 29, 2007 at 8:39 am

When you check Watergate, check Dick Tuck.
Routine foolaround was, for one moment, depicted as the end of the world as we know it.
Nixon's failure to tell the congress to stick it on the tapes was a big mistake. There is a real reason for executive privelege.
If Judge Sirica is your idea of justice no wonder you disagree with me - Sirica was a judicial Nifong.
At any rate, if Bush wanted someone dead for political reasons do you lack the wit to imagine a whole lot more folk more likely than Tillman? Ocam needs a shave.


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Posted by Fred
a resident of Barron Park
on Jul 29, 2007 at 8:55 am

Walter, sorry to trot out Watergate again, but Nixon sure didn't need the break-in or the Plumbers to win the election, but Mitchell (the future "law-and-order" Attorney General) did it anyway. People do irrational things, especially when convinced their ends are right.

As I said before, the scenario isn't Bush ordering a hit; it is an over-zealous functionary somewhere down the chain (hard to imagine?) getting carried away, and then of course the cover-up. I agree it is not likely, but I would not rule it out, esp with a group that has tended to think that it has a mission to achieve (including the wars).

FWIW, I would not agree Nixon's biggest mistake was handing over the tapes. I hope you are not defending Nixon, he is sadly a dark blot on the history of the US Presidency and, despite some good, did much to weaken a nation.

Fred


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Posted by Dr. Ferragamo
a resident of Stanford
on Jul 29, 2007 at 9:23 am

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]


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Posted by Deko
a resident of College Terrace
on Jul 29, 2007 at 10:08 am

I will said again:the most tragic mistake decent and sane Americans have committed was in perceiving the Bush/Cheney regime and Al Qaeda as separate entities.


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Posted by Al
a resident of College Terrace
on Jul 29, 2007 at 11:35 am

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]


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Posted by Dr. Ferragamo
a resident of Stanford
on Jul 29, 2007 at 12:03 pm

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]


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Posted by Long live Zionism
a resident of Stanford
on Jul 29, 2007 at 1:12 pm

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]


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Posted by Pro democracy
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jul 29, 2007 at 4:04 pm

So, what are all you people doing to ensure that we have a fair election this time around? If you believe at all that Pat Tillman's death had any political element to it, then stop arguing about it and do something -- make sure we never let any more self-serving, vindictive frat boy chicken hawks thwart democracy and take over the country again with hardly a peep from the meek masses.


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Posted by Deko
a resident of College Terrace
on Jul 29, 2007 at 4:09 pm

Generally I find the mentality of fing conspiracy behind just about any event to be idiotic as well as paranoid. Having said that, the more information trickles out about 9/11, the more puzzled I become.The vehement refusal of Bush/Cheney/Rice to even listen to their anti-terror professionals. The numerous clues that something of that nature was about to take place, ignored by everybody in the political chain of command. It seems like the hijackers had been practically broadcasting their plans, yet no one in the political chain of command seemed interested at the least. The rush to get the Bin-Laden family members out of the country on a charter on 9/12,the only plane allowed to fly on that day while refusing to allow the FBI any access to them. Having Bin-Laden trapped and cornered in Tora Bora, with the CIA field agent begging for 400 rangers to finish off the job. The reply from the Pentagon:no US troops to help capture him, don't ask for them again. ???


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Posted by Al
a resident of College Terrace
on Jul 29, 2007 at 4:09 pm

Pro,

I don't think that Tillman's death had a political component to it. After his death, it was, indeed, a political event, as your post proves. Thus, I don't need to take your challenge. Why do you insist that his actual death, in the field, was political?


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Posted by Al
a resident of College Terrace
on Jul 29, 2007 at 4:17 pm

Deko,

Clinton had some chances to kill Bin-Laden. He refused. That fact doesn't tell me anything. I do not believe that Clinton wanted Al-Queda to attack the USA. Clinton was weak, in terms of military power, but he was pro-USA.

Your argument makes no sense.

We got sucker punched on 9/11. Bush was as weak as Cllinton, initially, but he reponded and got it mostly right.

Deko, there are rational answers to all your questions, regarding 9/11. Use Google...you will find them. This is all too tiresome.


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Posted by Not born yesterday
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jul 29, 2007 at 5:02 pm

Pat Tillman's death somehow prompted by those who didn't want him to publicize what was going on over there? Come on.

Next you'll be claiming that higher ups in the administration jeopardized an important and expensive intelligence operation in the Middle East by outing a CIA operative, also putting the CIA operative and other intelligence personnel in danger, merely to intimidate the operative's spouse for pubicly criticizing the war. Oh brother, who would believe that?


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Posted by Al
a resident of College Terrace
on Jul 29, 2007 at 5:15 pm

"Next you'll be claiming that higher ups in the administration jeopardized an important and expensive intelligence operation in the Middle East by outing a CIA operative, also putting the CIA operative and other intelligence personnel in danger"

Wasn't that Richard Armitage, a holdover from the Clinton administration?


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Posted by Walter_E_Wallis
a resident of Midtown
on Jul 29, 2007 at 5:51 pm

Fred, I am not sticking up for Nixon, I am sticking up for justice. Nixon got a hosing that would not have been possible except for a hanging judge who under the canons should have recused himself and joined the prosecution.
Doctor Froggy, all of your questions have been answered by experts in the respective fields to the satisfaction of anyone not blinded by hatred. As a journeyman combat infantryman and a professional engineer I know enough about those two fields to know your criticism in those areas are not just baseless, but ludicrous. For the rest, I assume that your ignorance in those fields where I posess expertise is probably equal in the fields where I do not.
I would advise everyone to save this set, because monday morning it may all go down the memory hole.


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Posted by Deko
a resident of College Terrace
on Jul 29, 2007 at 5:51 pm

"Use Google, you'll find them"? the typical answer by the pliable, naive American, dumbed down by the meainstream media who just cannot believe that his government is capable of being evil. Actually, no Google search would bring answers to those questions. I haven't found even one answer to the questions I raised which would satisfy a 3 year old. There's no proof at all that Bush/Cheney didn't know about the attack, but there's plenty of irrefutable proof that they didn't want to hear about it before 9/11. There's no acceptable explanation to the failure to capture Bin-Laden in Tora Bora or to the mad rush to get his family out of the country on 9/12. Tillman was murdered, no doubt about it, the only question is whether the hit was ordered from above or not. And the next idiot who will again bring Clinton into this- the permanent and perpetual excuse for all the right wing's crime and corruption-Clinton did this and Clinton didn't do that, will be strangled by me personally.


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Posted by Not born yesterday
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jul 29, 2007 at 6:05 pm

""Next you'll be claiming that higher ups in the administration jeopardized an important and expensive intelligence operation in the Middle East by outing a CIA operative, also putting the CIA operative and other intelligence personnel in danger"

Wasn't that Richard Armitage, a holdover from the Clinton administration?"

That's the question of the moment, isn't it, who ordered the outing? Or perhaps not the question, since we don't hold this administration accountable for anything.

Are you suggesting that anyone who can't tell the difference between GWB and Clinton is somehow must have instigated this treasonous vendetta of his own accord? Or that perhaps the Bush Administration never applies political litmus tests or makes hiring and firing decisions for political reasons, thus a treasonous holdover in the ranks?



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Posted by Fred
a resident of Barron Park
on Jul 29, 2007 at 6:14 pm

Walter, I am glad you are not sticking up for Nixon. I am not in a great position to judge Sirica, but I would not say that Nixon got a hosing. I'm sure the process wasn't perfect - most political/judicial processes aren't - but on the scales of justice, I would say America got the hosing and Nixon got off somewhat easy. He was a bad egg.

Fred


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Posted by sarlat
a resident of Crescent Park
on Jul 29, 2007 at 7:20 pm

The same folks who are just so absolutely certain that Bush/Cheney had nothing to do with 9/11 or that Pat Tillman wasn't murdered were absolutely certain that Iraq had WMD and that we just had to invade Iraq because the next cloud over NYC will be a mushroom cloud. They just have blind faith in the government, even when that government turns out to be evil and utterly corrupt like the present administration. I have no doubt that Bush didn't plan it(too stupid and incompetent), but I wouldn't be shocked if CVheney figured it out and thought it would be a great excuse to create the imperial unitary presidency he so desired. The goofball we watched sitting frozen in that Florida classroom for 8 minutes, having no clue what to say or do is the Shrub we all know:clueless and lost without his daddy or one of his lackey sociopaths holding his hand and telling him what to do.


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Posted by Fred
a resident of Barron Park
on Jul 29, 2007 at 8:42 pm

Walter, I tend to agree that perversions of justice are not good. Though I don't recall many at the time having feeling as you do about Sirica, though he was an undistinguished judge prior to Watergate. Of course, Nixon, Agnew, Haldeman, Erlichman, Mitchell (the list goes on) were all in fact criminals, so I'm not sure that focusing on Sirica actually gets to the main point of what happened.

Fred


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Posted by Wow!
a resident of Barron Park
on Jul 29, 2007 at 10:33 pm

FBI site for OBL:

Web Link


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Posted by Concerned
a resident of Midtown
on Jul 29, 2007 at 11:21 pm

Here's a good one:

Web Link=


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Posted by Anonymous
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jul 31, 2007 at 5:16 pm

Back on topic, Rumsfield has refused to testify to Waxman's committee about the Tillman case and Fielding has invoked executive privilege to avoid providing documents to the committee. No coverup?

Web Link


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Posted by Walter_E_Wallis
a resident of Midtown
on Jul 31, 2007 at 9:36 pm

Anyone an file criminal comlaint. If you are certain someone executed Tillman, file charges. If in return you get your pants scorched, what the heck.


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Posted by Mike
a resident of another community
on Aug 1, 2007 at 1:56 pm

Testimony does not always equal truth. Didn't somebody once testify "I did not have sex with that woman"?


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Posted by Anonymous
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 1, 2007 at 9:46 pm

Wally,

Let's see the email and other documents. Or maybe it was part of the 150,000+ email messages "lost" by the RNC.

Waxman was unable to server the subpoena on the designated fall guy, Lt. General Kensinger. If there is nothing to hide, then there shouldn't be any problem releasing the documents and producing General Kensinger.




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Posted by Walter_E_Wallis
a resident of Midtown
on Aug 2, 2007 at 3:17 pm

The RNC E-Mails were by law seperate from government business. When a republican staffer was inadvertantly allowed access to the democrat political E-Mail the fit hit the shan. I don't believe there was any more of a legal requirement that party communications be saved than a requirement that all phone calls by all republicans be recorded and handed to democrats.
Remarkable the lust to protect the sececy of Al Qaida communications but deny secrecy to republican party deliberations.


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Posted by Anonymous
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 2, 2007 at 8:39 pm

Wally,

If the RNC email were ONLY non-government business, it wouldn't be an issue. The Hatch Act, remember it, prohibits using gov't property for political purposes. However, the RNC email servers were used to avoid archiving Official Records. You knew exactly what 150,000+ email messages I meant yet you sought to obscure the issue.

Let DoD and the White House produce the official documents pertaining to the Tillman case. They have them and unless they directly affect the president, they do not involve executive privilege. The Congressional committee has already determined that General Myers knew of the investigation of friendly fire a full month before the information was disclosed but did not mention it at the funeral.

If there is nothing to hide, why withhold the records.


Sorry, but further commenting on this topic has been closed.

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